Scott Walker new Gov of Wisconsin

Mags

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Not that I distrust you, Maggot, but please provide the link.

saw it on TV... I'm sure you can google it and find it - I referenced who had the study.

Not too keen on posting links, as I've seen it is not always wise to do.

Also - can you grow up and quit with the name calling one of these days... I know you are way more than 12 years old. People may actually take you seriously at that point.....
 

The Sponge

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Kinda ironic that when Unions were at an all time high the country was running like clockwork and families were sitting down for dinner together.:shrug: Now with the destruction of unions both head of households have to work just to put food on the table which leaves their kids in the hands of others. The country is now in a mess. :shrug: You would think that getting rid of these nasty unions the country would be running better according to these rightwing asshats. I guess losing all these decent paying jobs hasn't produce nothing but making certain people more wealthy while family values go right down the toilet. It is a fuking joke people buy into this nonsense how unions are bad for the country.
 

Duff Miver

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saw it on TV... I'm sure you can google it and find it - I referenced who had the study.

Not too keen on posting links, as I've seen it is not always wise to do.

Also - can you grow up and quit with the name calling one of these days... I know you are way more than 12 years old. People may actually take you seriously at that point.....

You see. Maggot - I did look at the BLS, and I didn't find any such thing; a direct comparison of public/private jobs with the same skill/education/experience level.

Nice dodge, however. Bet I can guess which network.

Not wise to post links??...Huh??? How can that possibly be a problem....unless you're making bogus claims?


Saaaay....didn't Telly Savalis win an Oscar or something for his role as Maggot? You could do worse.
 

Duff Miver

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Kinda ironic that when Unions were at an all time high the country was running like clockwork and families were sitting down for dinner together.:shrug: Now with the destruction of unions both head of households have to work just to put food on the table which leaves their kids in the hands of others. The country is now in a mess. :shrug: You would think that getting rid of these nasty unions the country would be running better according to these rightwing asshats. I guess losing all these decent paying jobs hasn't produce nothing but making certain people more wealthy while family values go right down the toilet. It is a fuking joke people buy into this nonsense how unions are bad for the country.

Maggot will be along on a minute with some revisionist history from Fox Newz to prove you wrong.
 

Mags

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Maggot will be along on a minute with some revisionist history from Fox Newz to prove you wrong.

Since your only "skill" is name calling, which many folks have pointed out before, I really don't see any need to respond to you. You are kind of like the WI Dem's that are hiding in IL - basically, a coward that really doesn't matter much in the whole scheme of things....

See ya!
 

Duff Miver

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Right behind you
Since your only "skill" is name calling, which many folks have pointed out before, I really don't see any need to respond to you. You are kind of like the WI Dem's that are hiding in IL - basically, a coward that really doesn't matter much in the whole scheme of things....

See ya!

Nice non-response, Maggot. Loved the link too.
 

Trampled Underfoot

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Kinda ironic that when Unions were at an all time high the country was running like clockwork and families were sitting down for dinner together.:shrug: Now with the destruction of unions both head of households have to work just to put food on the table which leaves their kids in the hands of others. The country is now in a mess. :shrug: You would think that getting rid of these nasty unions the country would be running better according to these rightwing asshats. I guess losing all these decent paying jobs hasn't produce nothing but making certain people more wealthy while family values go right down the toilet. It is a fuking joke people buy into this nonsense how unions are bad for the country.

It just blows me away. Being completely serious, you have Budweiser guys fighting to get rid of unions. It's not even worth the time. It's just a sad state of affairs in this country.
 

yyz

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I can provide a link pertaining to Wisconsin Public/private wages:


(Fresh link below)
 
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Chadman

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I keep wondering about this "same job/same experience/same education" business. I'm just wondering how many jobs are actually the same? Really the same. I doubt there are many teachers that can be compared outside the public sector - if they are, I think they usually are less qualified, and that's why they work for private entities. At least that's what I've been told and taught. Right or wrong? I don't know, but I've seen info that says that.

Other jobs? Firefighters and Police? Not too many comparisons there, are there?

The thought I'm wondering today is why is it just the teachers union they are trying to eliminate collective bargaining (instead of pay) for? Why not firefighters, police, and the other union workers - IF THE ISSUE IS BUDGET-DEFICIT-RELATED. Wouldn't that help? Did the Governor agree to a pay cut and agree to pay more for his benefits? Maybe he did - I didn't see it.

I think the answer is pretty obvious. He's going after the teachers union - and just that, essentially. Gee, I wonder why?
 

ssd

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yyz:

bad link. I'm happy to take a look at it if you can send one that is active.
 

yyz

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I keep wondering about this "same job/same experience/same education" business. I'm just wondering how many jobs are actually the same? Really the same. I doubt there are many teachers that can be compared outside the public sector - if they are, I think they usually are less qualified, and that's why they work for private entities. At least that's what I've been told and taught. Right or wrong? I don't know, but I've seen info that says that.

Other jobs? Firefighters and Police? Not too many comparisons there, are there?

The thought I'm wondering today is why is it just the teachers union they are trying to eliminate collective bargaining (instead of pay) for? Why not firefighters, police, and the other union workers - IF THE ISSUE IS BUDGET-DEFICIT-RELATED. Wouldn't that help? Did the Governor agree to a pay cut and agree to pay more for his benefits? Maybe he did - I didn't see it.

I think the answer is pretty obvious. He's going after the teachers union - and just that, essentially. Gee, I wonder why?

Make no mistake: He is taking EVERY union members bargaining away, with the exception of the police/fire/and State Patrol, as mentioned before.

Teachers are the only ones making the news, because of schools closing.

This hits us ALL.
 

Chadman

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Thanks, yyz. For the info and the link - which is exactly the important part of this discussion. For those who choose not to click on his link, here are three appropriate paragraphs to the equality comparison:

The study looks at total compensation ? pay and benefits together ? and found that public workers earn 4.8 percent less than private sector employees with the same qualifications and traits doing similar jobs.

Average compensation for public workers is higher because the jobs they do ? such as teaching ? require a relatively high level of education, and a higher education is one of the main factors that drives wages up, said Ethan Pollack, a senior policy analyst at the institute.

Yet the typical Wisconsin public sector employee with a bachelor's degree makes less than $62,000, compared to more than $82,000 in the private sector, Pollack said.


Two more quick points. I keep hearing about how this is not fair to taxpayers. Aren't each of these people taxpayers, too? I understand what is being said - but they are taxpayers, just like those supposedly being "hurt." And isn't it always the Conservative's mantra that everyone has the same opportunities and options for success and employment in this country? Don't all taxpayers then, have the same chance at having these positions? If the public sector is SUCH a more desired job, with so much more to offer financially and with benefits, why don't those that complain go after those jobs? Why don't they plan to do that when coming up in school and planning their careers?

My guess is, most people now complaining about this would never WANT those jobs, or have not taken the steps necessary to achieve those jobs. Nothing is absolute, but I'd say that's probably more correct more often than not.
 

The Sponge

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For all of u that wonder why not the police union?
A shitbag like this guy needs the police union to keep order or the whole town would explode. Kinda like the how Republicans brainwash the masses and the military while sticking it in their ass over and over again. For some strange reason the Democrats can't figure this out or maybe just don't want to.
 

Trench

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BLS: Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages - shown today: State Government employees average 2009 salary: $51,305. Average private sector employee (same experience, job, et): $38,626. On top of this, the benefit packages are also worth much more in the public sector.

That is pretty tough to defend for the unions - why should the tax paying public pay a 33% markup on labor above the market rate?

Not that I distrust you, Maggot, but please provide the link.

saw it on TV... I'm sure you can google it and find it - I referenced who had the study.

Not too keen on posting links, as I've seen it is not always wise to do.
Maybe I can help...

ABC News

Wage War: Government Employees vs. Everybody Else

By ALAN FARNHAM

Public Sector Protesters in Wisconsin Face a Backlash, But Are State Workers Really Overpaid?

Feb. 21, 2011

Are public workers overpaid? Are their entitlements too cushy, their retirements too rich? How do they compare in overall compensation with their private sector peers?

Those questions are front-and-center now in the political war being waged in Madison, Wisc., and in such cash-strapped states as California, Illinois and New York. Recent days have seen one set of protesters?public employees fighting to hang onto pay and benefits?countered by another set brandishing signs demanding public workers get smaller pensions and agree to give-backs ("Pay Your Fair Share!").

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says that government workers are the "haves" and the taxpayers are increasingly the "have nots."

Over in Milwaukee, at the University of Wisconsin, economics professor Keith Bender is watching the struggle with professional interest. Bender is co-author of a report released in April titled, "Out of Balance? Comparing Public and Private Sector Compensation Over 20 Years."

He and professor John Heywood found that wages and salaries of state and local employees are lower than for private sector workers of equal education, and further, that for the past 20 years those earnings have been in relative decline. Factoring in benefits including pensions, which in the public sector comprise a greater share of compensation, doesn't change that picture: state and local workers still have lower total compensation. Compensation for state employees, the report finds, is on average 6.8 percent lower than that earned by comparable private sector employees.

So, why has the idea gained currency that public workers are overpaid?

It's because, says Bender, Bureau of Labor Statistics data shows public sector workers making more. The problem there, he says, is that the BLS isn't comparing apples and apples?it doesn't take into account workers' level of education, which tends to be higher in the public sector. Adjust for education level, says Bender, and you find public workers underpaid.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wage-war-state-employees-everbody/story?id=12964194
 

BuckwheatJWN

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Read the first couple pages of this and skipped the others. If someone already mentioned this I'm sorry. While I don't care to state how strong of a union man I am (I actually have only been in a WAL MART once), the trouble with public unions comes down to one basic thing. They VOTE for their own bosses. Private industry doesn't. So every election whether it be a democrat or in some cases a liberal republican, the government workers ban together and vote for the guy who is going to GIVE them the most. The politicians know this and as a result give them more than what is economically feasible in the long run. Whether they deserve the money has little to do with it. You can't pay a great school teacher, cop , firemen, etc enuff in my opinion, but in bad economic times you can't pay them what some guy 2 or 3 terms ago promised them.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Such a lot hoopla over taxes--

Face it--there are only 2 types of people for higher taxes--those who depend on taxes for their livelyhood and those doing the political postering. Don't belive in 60 years I've ever heard anyone say--They need to raise my taxes.

The ordeal in Wisconsin is huge--and will certainly shape 2012 elections.

You only have to look at post office vs fed ex and ups--ones goes billions in the hole every year the others are profitable. The gov needs to be down sided dramatically not expanded.

Lots of info coming out most were not aware of-and even union members are tired of being forced to contribute financially to political party they do may not agree.




http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576105760131773034.html
The Showdown Over Public Union Power

At last, politicians and voters are fighting back against the most potent lobby for government spending and ever-higher taxes.

Government workers have taken to the streets in Madison, Wis., to battle a series of reforms proposed by Gov. Scott Walker that include allowing workers to opt out of paying dues to unions. Everywhere that this "opt out" idea has been proposed, unions have battled it vigorously because the money they collect from dues is at the heart of their power.

Unions use that money not only to run their daily operations but to wage political campaigns in state capitals and city halls. Indeed, public-sector unions especially have become the nation's most aggressive advocates for higher taxes and spending. They sponsor tax-raising ballot initiatives and pay for advertising and lobbying campaigns to pressure politicians into voting for them. And they mount multimillion dollar campaigns to defeat efforts by governors and taxpayer groups to roll back taxes.

Early last year, for example, Oregon's unions spearheaded a successful battle to pass ballot measures 66 and 67, which collectively raised business and income taxes in the state by an estimated $727 million annually. Led by $2 million from the Oregon Education Association and $1.8 million from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), unions contributed an estimated 75% of the nearly $7 million raised to promote the tax increases, according to the National Institute on Money in State Politics.

Also in 2010, teachers unions and public-safety unions in Arizona were influential players in the successful ballot campaign to increase the state's sales tax to 6.6% from 5.6% to raise an additional $1 billion. Some state business groups also supported the tax increase in the vain hope that the legislature would roll back business and investment taxes. The public unions, by contrast, wanted the tax hike precisely to avoid government spending cuts.

In Washington state there was a ballot measure last November that would have raised $2 billion by imposing an income tax on those earning more than $200,000. The media portrayed the political fight as a battle among the rich. That's because William H. Gates Sr, father of Microsoft founder Bill Gates, supported the tax, while Microsoft's current chief executive, Steve Ballmer and Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos opposed it.

But unions were the real power behind the scenes. According to Ballotpedia.com, state and national SEIU locals gave $2.5 million, while the National Education Association and Washington teachers union locals contributed $900,000 to the $6 million campaign for the new income tax. In the end, Washingtonians voted down the tax, in part because they feared it would eventually be expanded to everyone.

Tax and spend--sound familiar?

++++++++++++++++++++++++

--pulse check on issue

What Should the Wisconsin Governor Do?

<LABEL class=pds-feedback-label>Negotiate a compromise bill with State Senate Democrats 5.2% (7,234 votes) </LABEL>


<LABEL class=pds-feedback-label>Ask Republicans to pull the bill and find another way to cut spending 1.79% (2,497 votes) </LABEL>


<LABEL class=pds-feedback-label>Draw a line in the sand: If you want to keep your job, get back to work -- otherwise, you're fired 92.21% (128,364 votes) </LABEL>


<LABEL class=pds-feedback-label>Other (post a comment) 0.8% (1,108 votes) </LABEL>



Total Votes: 139,203

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/02/21/decide-wisconsin-gov-scott-walker/
 

ssd

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I'd really like to see the data they used on this. I have a background in statistics and you can make numbers say anything you want them to, just by tweaking a few things.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_d4093848-3c92-11e0-ac18-001cc4c03286.html

"but a new report by the liberal Economic Policy Institute"

Of course, they will look at the data that will support their side of the argument. A conservative policy would probably report it just the opposite.

I have a hard time believing this article without seeing the data. A turnpike cashier makes $16-$18 per hour plus benefits. A private sector employee with the same skill set is probably cashiering at a Taco Bell making $7.40 per hour with little to no benefits.

It used to be that public sector employees were paid less per hour than private sector employees because of the benefits that accompanied the public sector job. I do not have the links handy but I will try and find them and post them later that lately, public salaries on average have topped private sector salaries not even including the benefits.

I'll probably not have time until this evening to search for those but will post them when i do.
 
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