WE ARE! IN DENIAL!
- Thread starter saint
- Start date
You are the one missing the point.
John Blake was on an agent's payroll while at UNC. Even if there were no other violations, Carolina would have received punishment for this.
Were the players in the loop on this, or were they actively persuaded to participate? No. That's completely irrelevant.
This is absolutely a football issue. Because, the football program is the REASON for the cover-up.
And yes, it did have a positive impact on the program. Because, and this is undeniable, had this come out when it was supposed to have, it would have hurt recruiting for several years. Which, in football, can have at least a 4-5 year impact.
Which, is the exact reason why Paterno and the rest of them didn't come out. They didn't want it to impact their program, their lives.
So....this is a football issue. And your reason for saying its not (players lack of knowledge, no trickle down) is completely irrelevant and shows either 1. You have no understanding of how the NCAA and it's regulations work, or 2. You are still in denial of the truth.
well i read the last 2 pages fast....not over the course of the day(real time)....i think that may be the cause of my assumption :0074
Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.
But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
Ummmmm, okay. You aren't in a position to make that decision so who cares what you want. That is all it is. That is what you think should happen and by the powers invested in you by you I now pronounce your opinion as your opinion and having absolutely no relevance to anyone but you. The Pro190 thing was and is a joke just as the tranny thing and sandwiches If I am arguing with myself then I wouldn't be arguing?! How is that even possible? It seems like I am arguing with an opinionated idiot that has consistently missed the point.
Once again, your opinion is not right. Nor is it wrong. It is an opinion based on emotion and truths disseminated from media outlets and I'm the one nobody listens too? You did. Sorry about your luck there. Besides, you aren't a nobody you are a human being. Kind of rules you out of the judgement business though, you know, not being Jesus and all.
Hope that helps,
FDC
It was my job dude and not anything I ever talk about and would be quite surprised if anyone here that knows me would consider me heartless or anything of that nature. I am simply stating a very real fact of life. It happened. People mean to do harm to the United States and those that inhabit it. They have little regard for human life. As I stated before and will again, the child's diaper stuffer sealed that baby's fate long before I ever laid eyes on it. Luckily, there was no injury to myself or any of my countrymen. Again, that is the nature of armed conflict man. A fact of life my man. People die in conflicts, innocent people. I will deal with it when my time comes but I have absolutely no regret for anything done in the throes of conflict. Keep in mind I didn't leave the Marine Corps unscathed by any stretch.
Hope that helps,
FDC
It's a rather simple question.
Did the actions that have been proven provide a competitive advantage for Penn State?
If your answer is yes, then it gives grounds for the NCAA to act.
If your answer is no, then it doesn't.
It's not crystal clear, obviously. If your answer is no, I ask you, why did the administration cover it up? Because Sandusky is such a great guy? Uh...no. They covered it up to protect the program. Why, because they knew that release of the information would have harmed their program. Give me another reason why they would have hid this? I said it previously, but acting appropriately would have had a short term recruiting impact and more than likely donors as well. So, because the decisions were made to protect the program, an in doing so provided a competitive advantage, then the NCAA should step in.
It's a grey area and good arguments can be made for both sides. If you take emotion out of it, the above is what it all boils down to. If the NCAA fails to act it creates a slippery slope. Criminal actions made for the benefit of the program will go unpunished. That is a terrible precedent to set.
And yes, Penn State needs to be the example.
Did the actions that have been proven provide a competitive advantage for Penn State?
If your answer is yes, then it gives grounds for the NCAA to act.
If your answer is no, then it doesn't.
It's not crystal clear, obviously. If your answer is no, I ask you, why did the administration cover it up? Because Sandusky is such a great guy? Uh...no. They covered it up to protect the program. Why, because they knew that release of the information would have harmed their program. Give me another reason why they would have hid this? I said it previously, but acting appropriately would have had a short term recruiting impact and more than likely donors as well. So, because the decisions were made to protect the program, an in doing so provided a competitive advantage, then the NCAA should step in.
It's a grey area and good arguments can be made for both sides. If you take emotion out of it, the above is what it all boils down to. If the NCAA fails to act it creates a slippery slope. Criminal actions made for the benefit of the program will go unpunished. That is a terrible precedent to set.
And yes, Penn State needs to be the example.
Good post and good points. My answer is that it was covered up to prevent irreparable harm to the entire university but provided no competitive edge to the players or coaches. It did not "add" anything to their program.
Ah, therein lies the catch. Does harm to the university, to the Penn State name, cause harm to the football program. I think so.
But...the above is why the NCAA most likely will not sanction. Or, if they do, it will be insignificant, for show. But the NCAA has never shown the desire to do that so I am doubtful they will act.
and if they react with the death penalty, it could create even bigger things within the NCAA...
the ncaa will do something but it wont be enough in the eyes of many, but just enough to keep things aligned
Well yeah it does cause harm to the football program because it is part of the university. The women's volleyball team and the lacrosse team is also, so if we are to take what you are saying all the way out to the collectively exhausted end it also provided a competitive edge to those programs as well and to the same extent. Thus those programs would have to be shut down as well. You see my point?! I agree that they covered it up and all the individuals involved should be put away, no doubt. I also think that people need to be careful what they wish for. Giving the NCAA any more authority would be an incredibly bad idea in my opinion.
Please realize, that the quotes kickserv pulled together, are in no particular order, and are soundbytes of lengthier statements made.
I'm pretty sure I never said that Paterno was 100% innocent of any wrong doing. I'm also pretty sure that I said the reaction and outcry of punishment towards him was over the top.
PS. For all of you that have taken the time to inform me of how putrid Paterno and "his crew" were during this whole scandal, and how they did it to save the football program and had they turned Sandusky in they would have suffered a black eye and not made millions of dollars for the program.. because it all boils down to money right?
When you collected those wagers you made betting on penn state over the last 15 years, you too have profited from this sad chain of events.
Be proud, light those torches, rally in the streets. Use that money you made to buy really big, giant torches that burn really bright.
Paterno's football program and Paterno's money built that multi million dollar library on the campus that everyone in the city uses. Shut it down. It's got his name on the wall, his dirty money built it. Rally to shut it down. Take the books away from the students that were bought with that dirty money.
No, no one says that. That would be mean to punish those students because they weren't there in the shower unzipping sandusky's pants right?
It's entirely too easy to sit there and pipe up, oh stop the football program, that will solve it all. Burn down his statue because it doesn't provide me any immediate benefit but shhhhhhh don't say anything about that library because I use that. Shit, I don't want to have to buy my own books that would cost me money. But yea, totally knock down that statue.
And just wait, in a few years, this whole incident will be forgotten about and Paterno will be right back to the level he was.
Just like Ray Lewis (well, maybe not as fast as Ray Lewis).
I don't think the Ray Lewis situation is quite the same as the PSU situation.
Note.......this statement is just plain mind numbing......
"And just wait, in a few years, this whole incident will be forgotten about and Paterno will be right back to the level he was. Just like Ray Lewis (well, maybe not as fast as Ray Lewis)."
Wow.......:facepalm:
Note.......this statement is just plain mind numbing......
"And just wait, in a few years, this whole incident will be forgotten about and Paterno will be right back to the level he was. Just like Ray Lewis (well, maybe not as fast as Ray Lewis)."
Wow.......:facepalm:
You're right. It isn't the same. Ray Lewis was part of a cover up involving the murder of two people. MURDER.
And he got voted the MVP of the superbowl what, a year later?
In order to maintain some faith in humans, I have to believe Marine and FDC are just overstating their viewpoint for the sake of arguement.
Just in case that is not your intent:
1) Ray Lewis' murder charges were dismissed...agree or not, that's the fact...I'm not sure why you are obessed with that case in relation to this one but, that is your own delusion to deal with
2) If we take what the NCAA should do out of the equation (Saint makes good points on both sides of that perspective), just ask yourself what should the Board and leadership of PS do based on, let's agree here, some mistakes were made. So far, they are honoring Paterno's agreement, not taking the statue down and paying one of the disgraced leaders $300k a year to not work there anymore. Paterno's family is hiring their own investigator to examine the findings of the independent report. Any room for contrition here? Is the culture different...has anything changed...have they learned anything? There's no sign of any of that.
3) Marine somehow thinks collecting money for wagers on PS puts us in the same category as a child rapist and those that allowed that activity to occur. Let's give him a pass on that statement as it is hard to believe anyone could be that ignorant.
Shouldn't the university suspend the program for a year and say that they are going to take that time to re-evaluate communication, management and control of the program and re-evaluate the culture and leadership of the university? Because people like you think everything will go back to normal in a few years is exactly why this situation demands strong action.
Just in case that is not your intent:
1) Ray Lewis' murder charges were dismissed...agree or not, that's the fact...I'm not sure why you are obessed with that case in relation to this one but, that is your own delusion to deal with
2) If we take what the NCAA should do out of the equation (Saint makes good points on both sides of that perspective), just ask yourself what should the Board and leadership of PS do based on, let's agree here, some mistakes were made. So far, they are honoring Paterno's agreement, not taking the statue down and paying one of the disgraced leaders $300k a year to not work there anymore. Paterno's family is hiring their own investigator to examine the findings of the independent report. Any room for contrition here? Is the culture different...has anything changed...have they learned anything? There's no sign of any of that.
3) Marine somehow thinks collecting money for wagers on PS puts us in the same category as a child rapist and those that allowed that activity to occur. Let's give him a pass on that statement as it is hard to believe anyone could be that ignorant.
Shouldn't the university suspend the program for a year and say that they are going to take that time to re-evaluate communication, management and control of the program and re-evaluate the culture and leadership of the university? Because people like you think everything will go back to normal in a few years is exactly why this situation demands strong action.
1. Ray Lewis plea dealed his way out of the murder rap. He was still part of the cover up. He plainly admitted that he gave misleading statements to the police when questioned about it.
Plain terms: He intentionally acted to cover up a crime. And here is in in the NFL yet, still being worshipped.
3. I am not saying it is the same crime. Just like people are saying that the present day student athletes on the football team have profited from the scandal by having the PSU program remain so hallowed.. so have you by collecting money from those same efforts.
Don't put words in my mouth azbob. I didn't say shit about gambling debts either. I am only in this argument because I was defending Marine from Kickserv's call out. I didn't like it and think I stated so.
Hope that helps.
FDC
