You definitely have my respect as well gmroz, just wanted to get that out there as I go answer a few of your rebuttals. And honestly, alot of these theories and ideas took me the entire 4 years and some even longer to slightly grasp, and I had a very open mind(even a slanted mind toward Christianity) so I really don't expect to convince you because I honestly don't think you have a very open mind, which is fine, you have made up your mind on the matter. but more for the people who might have questions with their faith and people ask them these questions that they at least have an answer. And I feel that, if nothing else, I am giving you a rational train of thought, even if the conclusion isnt rational to you. Like I have stated before, it is better than saying "just have faith in God no matter what" and thats the end all.
Ok, I honestly don't believe we completely evolved from monkeys. Scientists who believe in evolution see the few samples of evolving human/monkey skulls that we have come across and they see the link between a complete monkey to a complete human. Christian scientists explain the evidence as extinct species or rare deformities. Even if I submit to your theory(which it is still a theory and has yet to be proven) I still would like to hear your answer to where we all came form. Because for me that is the biggest arguement against no supernatural is that no one has given an adequate answer for there being "just natural".
You dismiss my reasoning as "pure lunacy"that because science doesnt have
ALL THE ANSWERS it leads us to the assuption there must be a creator. It is not that science doesnt have all the answers Gary, It is that science is without a single answer that is either reasonable or agreed upon, for how we came into existence. IT DOES NOT GIVE ONE ANSWER. So in my mind, and any unbiased mind where a supernatural being is a possibility(not a fact) but a possibility, when presented with no answer, and an answer, I HAVE to choose the option that gives me an answer. But for you where a supernatural being is 0% chance, absolutely not a possibility, then you are left saying "i dont know, maybe one day we will find out". So that is what I meant by, "It HAS to be a supernatural creator".
I do not know for sure if something supernatural created God, who is also supernatural. But it is rational to believe that something that does not play by our rules of "natural"(time, space, matter) should not be bound by those rules in how we think about it. Is that not fair to say? Nobody could conceivably score 250 points in a game in college basketball, but if someone didn't play by college basketball rules, and was not bound by time(he played for 5 hours instead of 2 20 minute halves) or the hoop was 10 feet wide for just him, then it is rational to say, Yes I geuss He could score 250. I know I probably just made things alot more confusing and I apologize but, it is the same idea you got caught up with the Mary being a virgin, and now with God HAVING to have someone create Him.
Computers(which are made by intelligent design as well) are extremely complex and no rational person would look at a computer and think, oh it just evolved all these parts together for them to function that way, all of these little peices of silicone were floating around and an explosion must have somehow fused them together causing the metal to be welded but somehow without burning the motherboard.... Yes it is concievable for some who are really stretching it, but not probable. That is pretty much my arguement against evolution by the way Gary, and it is
for you there is only 1 option of how we came to be, evolution, and so if there is a way we could concievably come together then it MUST have happened because there is no other way it could have, but for me, I have the option in my mind of saying it could be God or it could be evolution, and the odds of all of this happening are gabijillions to 1 one, or a supernatural being could have created us. I choose the one which is more likely in my mind, but for you there is 0% chance of a supernatural so you choose the one that is more likely to you.
I was going to talk to you about irreducible complexity,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducibly_complex , but i did some quick research and found out it there is actually evidence to disprove it. But the more I read up on the evidence, the more it made the case for evolution weaker because of the just amzaingly long and really inconcievable odds for something as simple as a flagellum, evolve and then function, which hasn't entirely been explained by science either.
But again, I don't want to get to bogged down in the science side of Christianity like evolution debates, because honestly I don't know what alot of better read creationist scientist know. In reality only 1 or 2 of the 10 questions had anything to do with that. But I was just hoping you could give me an explanation only using natural guidelines(within the realms of "science") of how life started.
I honestly don't think you have rational thinking when you believe entirely in science, and yet it gives you no reason for how it all started. It is not rational for me to think that without a supernatural, there was nothing and then for there was something. And just because you say something is irrational to you, does not make the arguement irrational. So when you say all you have is rational thinking and logic as if to say all I have is faith I think you will agree that is unfair. As I believe I have given you many logical answers to back up the belief I have in God. You might not agree totally with the arguement, but I would like you to point out arguements I give you that are without reason and or logic. Like that old saying "reasonable minds can disagree" or something like that. This is a big deall to me because the last thing I want to be is another Christian who can't give a reasonable answer to someone who asks him "why do you believe what you believe".
I am just going down the list and to get back to you saying no evolution happens over short period.... I totally agree with everything you said, that Is why I think you should check out that link I posted. Which doesn't actually make a case at all for creationism, but it is interesting.
I am not making your point about God can't heal amputees. He obviously can heal amputees, but He doesnt because it would make it blatantly obvious to all of us as proof that God existed. He does not want to throw the evidence in our face thus causing us(and you even said it best yourself) to say "The gig is up, I believe". We would be forced to believe in God and yada yada yada, I already talked about this point at the start.
If you have a problem with any of the post, as always let me know and I will try to defend it.
I also saw that you mentioned your view of morals in a reply to a poster. I was wondering if you feel that morals are absolute or if they are relative. Answering this will probably move this debate in another direction but I feel we have both done an adequate job explaining our views and both given an effort to back it up with reasoning behind our views on those 10 questions we started out with.
But honestly Gary let me say that it is a joy of mind to come into the forum and debate with you about these ideas and there be no name calling or anger and just trying to talk reasonable about very tough, sensitive issues, I think it speaks alot to your character. Also, It pretty much boils down to this, that for me(and I honestly believe an unbiased mind) supernatural makes more sense than believing in no supernatural, but it is the fact that supernatural cannot possibly exist from the start, that as far fetched as no supernatural seems, that you have to swallow incredible odds for it to happen right up to the point where you have to say I dont know how it even started but we have to find the answer someday because it is the only way, the idea of Supernatural being real is even more far fetched and any arguement that assumes He could be real is "lunacy" or "irrational". Which is fine, but I hope we can agree that I have at least given you adequate answers to those questions you proposed, and if not let me know and I will try.
By the way, if you could shoot me an email at this name at yahoo, I would love to talk about other things besides just religion with ya lol.
