weasal i want to apologize for being a bit harsh on you. If you would have come out and told us you were a little bit punchy i wouldn't have been as hard on you. Sorry bud
Why Won't God Heal Amputees?
- Thread starter WhatsHisNuts
- Start date
weasal i want to apologize for being a bit harsh on you. If you would have come out and told us you were a little bit punchy i wouldn't have been as hard on you. Sorry bud
This debate could go on endlessly and no will sway the other side.
one thing can that can't be argued
If those of faith (which ever it may be) are wrong they at least go through life with burden of family deaths and other adversities with some inner peace--the only time their error in judgement would come into play is at their death--and what are consequences :shrug:
on other hand -if athiest are wrong in their judgement--they will have to live with it forever.
---and that Groz is why you find many athiest get religion when death looks inevitable--its called hope.
one thing can that can't be argued
If those of faith (which ever it may be) are wrong they at least go through life with burden of family deaths and other adversities with some inner peace--the only time their error in judgement would come into play is at their death--and what are consequences :shrug:
on other hand -if athiest are wrong in their judgement--they will have to live with it forever.
---and that Groz is why you find many athiest get religion when death looks inevitable--its called hope.
Pascal's Wager makes sense if it were one religion vs no religion. Take into account all the religions of the world, knowing that if their is God, only ONE can possibly be right, you might still be rotting along side the atheists in hell. It is not a 50/50 proposition.
No, it's called delusion.
Gary, what are some of the answers that you had when you were growing up as a catholic that your teachers/preists couldn't answer honestly for you?
gmrozz my brother first let me point out i incourage the good fight from the minority. My brother u have the hatrick almost going for you. You have the political stuff conquered. You have the religion stuff mastered and now all you need is to get your handicapping to the next level and you are not that far. If you apply your thoughts in these two areas (religion and politics)that I feel you have mastered, and can keep an open mind, you will someday master handicapping. Any time you want to talk capping with me get my email. Ps have you notice that most of these people that believe in this fairy tale are also the same people who believe in George Bush? That sums it all up right there. I never jumped into the title of you thread cause i enjoyed you sticking to your guns and keep battling on your own. the best line in all of this was from stock who said its tuff to deal with you because your mind is already made up. You and every scientist in the word. And if you ever call us mud again i will make a mud ball, heat it in the sun for a few days and throw it at you.
Last edited:
I think he said once why do all the scientist in the world not believe in this fairy tale. He also ask why do i pray to someone who never answers back. If you need this crutch in your life then so be it.
grmozz true story my brothers father in law died about a year ago. he never believe in all this silly stuff. On his death bed there was a preist outside the door. The hospital wanted him to come in. My brother was in the room and asked him if it was alright to let the preist in. My brothers father in law said "keep him the hell out of here and tell him to run along" I wonder if he is in hell or just worm bait like the rest of people who die.
I think you meant to ask what questions i had growing up. Honestly, I'm 15 years removed from those religion classes, so I can't remember what they were...specifically. I can tell that they probably weren't brain busters. If I had to guess, it would be along the lines of "How come God allows people to starve to death?" or "why would God create ted Bundy?". Any theist worth his salt could spin their way around these in a matter of seconds....but, I was scorned for even thinking such blasphemous thoughts. God is wonderful and questioning Him is only a sign of my weakness and lack of faith.......that's the type of answers I recall.
cmon gary, "Spin their way around these"? Is that what you would call my answers to those questions? I mean you asked these questions as if they could not be logically answered by Christians. The whining guy in your video even said "These are impossible to answer, that we only could give lame excuses like "God has a special plan". And Yet have I not answered all questions logically? Of course you don't agree with my answers but are they not logically sound(given the possibility that a supernatural being could exist)? If not please let me know which responses do not follow logic.
Also, I am just geussing but after your teachers could not answer those questions you went out looking for evidence to disprove God and probably have done alot of reading up on it. I noticed you have already mentioned one book that I am checking out, should there be any other books that I should check into?
Also, not to beat the question over the head or anythign but you have yet to give me your answer as to how that dust (which eventually came together somehow and to form the cell which as evolved into all these different species) came to exist from nothing. I mean you have repeatedly given me the same answer that we all evolved from this single life form, and yet the real question I am asking you is what is your personal belief of how it all started, how something came from seemingly nothing. I think it is only fair that you answer this since I had 10 questions to answer.
Last edited:
Thanks a lot for the compliments.
The title of the thread was the title of the short video I linked up, and I knew it would attract attention. Religion gets a free pass here and everywhere else and I finally garnered the courage to put my viewpoint out there....begging for debate. As I have mentioned a few times, I'm not a religion hater, I just want my side of the argument to see the light of day. A lot of people are NEVER exposed to the atheist philosophy because atheism is dismissed as satan personified. We're demonized before we can get a word out and it is unfair to those that haven't even heard our point of view.
I don't think I have got the political thing down nearly as well as I do religion. I come across as a democrat simply because I'm liberal, but the reality is that I can't stand either party. The idea of aligning yourself with any party is idiotic when you think about it. My disdain for Bush has me on the offensive, but I also enjoy breaking down arguments. If you read a lot of my posts in the political forum, I'm breaking down the arguments of others. The thing that makes me nuts about the political posts is that people like DTB don't answer questions, instead, they change the subject. Rather than point that out, people go with the flow and allow him to change the tide. Makes NO sense.
Handicapping is a sore subject for me. I came into the Fall 2006 gambling season with a philosophy that I was so confident in that I was seriously considering writing a book...no joke. In posted plays, I was 43-40-2 in football and I am sitting at 43-41 in college hoops. That's 86-81-2. That's just not good enough and my philosophy has changed....slightly. I'm going to rethink the handicapping philosophy coming into Fall 2007 and see what happens. If I don't improve to 55% or better, I'm going to scale back and just go back to betting for the fun of it. It's not that I put that much thought into my system, but it is stressful and it does take time.
I've been wanting to ask for your email for a month or so, but just never got around to it. I'll email Mr. Wooden and see what happens.
Here's a great quote for you regarding religion:
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." - H.L Mencken
-Gary
I am not meaning for this to be taken as an attack, but I can honestly say that your answers are not conceived using logic. Your point about "the possibility that a supernatural being" exists blows it up right there. There is zero evidence of a supernatural being and to use it as the basis of your argument makes the argument illogical....from my perspective.
To be honest, I was just skeptical coming out of my religion classes. As of a few years ago, I developed the hypothesis that religion was created as a means to cope with death. I never really pursued it any further until the last couple years. However, you are correct in that I have been doing some reading. See below:
-The End of Faith, by Sam Harris
-Letter to a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris
-The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins
-Misquoting Jesus, by Bart D. Ehrman
-Why I Am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russell
ON DECK
-Intelligent Thought, John Brockman
-Atheist Manifesto, Michael Onfray
If you are as sharp as I think you can be, you will find some materials that "debunk" these books/authors. That's fine, but I would urge you to take two hours to read Letter to a Christian Nation. Very short read and is almost a synopsis for The End of Faith.....which is a very powerful book.
If telling you that life started (thanks to conditions that support life) from the simplest of life forms (a cell) isn't good enough, I don't know what to tell you. Science doesn't have an answer to how this initial life form began and, therefor, neither do I. Simply implying that a supernatural being has to be responsible isn't the answer that we should be considering in 2007. I hope this clears it up, but if you want me to come right out and say "I don't know", consider it done.
I do not take it as an attack Gary. But let me start by saying that there is no evidence to disprove a supernatural being either, so I could make the same ?logical? argument that you just did about anything you say that is against a supernatural being. Of course, I think we are getting the definition of ?logic? mixed up. Logic does not mean correct, as I assume you are taking it, but it is whether your argument is valid and that your reasoning is sound. For that to be the case your premises support your conclusion and lead to it in an orderly manner so that one could follow from premises to understand how you reached your conclusion. Since we got that out of the way I would like you to answer my question again, if there is any arguments of mine that are not valid or ?logical?, since your answer the first time was ?You started off with a premise I don?t believe in that makes the argument illogical? which is not the case for making an argument logical or not. And you say my arguments start with the basis that there is a supernatural, which is entirely untrue, I said if there is a possibility that a supernatural can exist. I think you have to at least consider the possibility of the supernatural existing. Just like I consider the fact that a supernatural does not exist when considering your arguments. I do not look at evolution and say that can?t exist because there is a God(which is precisely what you have been doing to many of my arguments), I look at evolution and try to find faults with evolution(which there are many questions I have regarding, but a lot of evolution makes sense to me and I stated in my very first posts that I am very weak in the category of defending Christianity against evolution). But if I took your point of view I wouldn?t even consider evolution, which I think is wrong.
In regards to my question to you?.
If you can live with the answer ?I don?t know? then that is enough for me, I personally could not live with that answer to a question as instrumental as that. I guess it would be the same way with me as it was for you, if I were an atheist and my faith in science could not answer that question I would go looking for the reason why it could not. I think it is imperative that you understand that I am asking about time before the cell, because you keep bring up human life coming from a cell and evolving. I say this because you cannot even answer my question without prefacing it with ?If telling you that life started (thanks to conditions that support life) from the simplest of life forms (a cell) isn't good enough, I don't know what to tell you? as if that is an answer to the question.
In regards to the books you have read?
I will definitely check out some of those books you told me about, and not just to ?debunk? them, but because I enjoy listening to the other side of the argument. I don?t need anybody to tell me why I believe in something. If I have questions with my belief I will then look for answers. I am more interested in hearing the arguments that persuade those that think differently than me. And for that reason I think you should spend a little time reading up on intellectual Christians, who have some good stuff and would be worth your time in my opinion. With your permission I would like to get your email from jack so that I could let you know my thoughts of the books when I finish them.
Even though broken record (aka sponge, who I read through your quoting of him and find that he is still up to the same ignorance and bashing of Bush) revels in the fact that you are ?difficult for me to deal with? because you have already made up your mind, doesn?t mean it is a good thing. To ask questions for another sides view without ever having an open mind to consider their answers is futile. I can honestly say that when I asked you a question about the universe, even though I knew you had no answer for it, if you would have given me an answer I definitely would have thought it over and had an open mind to it. I would not have gone to my automatic response of that is wrong because God exists. Which seems to be your only response to many of my answers (with exception of evolution and then you stated science has much evidence to support your belief which I can respect, also dealing with scriptures you did have a couple legit concerns with my answer and I felt like I answered your questions about those). I understand you don?t think my answers are correct but if you don?t believe in Christianity because nobody could give you valid answers to those questions, well then tell me which answers are not valid. But that is no longer the case, you didn?t care what the answers were to those questions because you have already made up your mind that there is absolutely no God, and you have done a lot of research and thought to come to that conclusion and I respect that, but I would hope you would agree that though they do not prove there is a God, they are at least valid answers and that these questions cannot only be answered with ?because God isn?t real?.
My goal was always to give those with an open mind some valid answers to tough questions that they may have struggled with in their own lives. I would also hope that I have changed your opinion that ALL Christians are either uneducated, or educated but shielding themselves from the fear of death, that some of us understand many viewpoints and are not just na?ve, but that we have answers to the tough questions of life and they are valid answers.
I can honestly say that I have witnessed many debates, both live and recorded, between well versed, educated Christians, debating with well versed educated atheists (both having phd?s and or books, not joe off the street) and the atheists more often than not, are the ones that don?t have answers( yet alone valid answers) to the questions asked during the debate. (Of course me saying that probably holds as much weight for you, as you telling me about all the evidence science has regarding earths earliest stages and life forms, which is to say, not much)
So as the debate is coming to a close I wanted to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about all of this Gary, it means a lot to me and I have enjoyed it quite a bit this past week, and by the view count of the thread I can tell many are interested as well.
-Brad
In regards to my question to you?.
If you can live with the answer ?I don?t know? then that is enough for me, I personally could not live with that answer to a question as instrumental as that. I guess it would be the same way with me as it was for you, if I were an atheist and my faith in science could not answer that question I would go looking for the reason why it could not. I think it is imperative that you understand that I am asking about time before the cell, because you keep bring up human life coming from a cell and evolving. I say this because you cannot even answer my question without prefacing it with ?If telling you that life started (thanks to conditions that support life) from the simplest of life forms (a cell) isn't good enough, I don't know what to tell you? as if that is an answer to the question.
In regards to the books you have read?
I will definitely check out some of those books you told me about, and not just to ?debunk? them, but because I enjoy listening to the other side of the argument. I don?t need anybody to tell me why I believe in something. If I have questions with my belief I will then look for answers. I am more interested in hearing the arguments that persuade those that think differently than me. And for that reason I think you should spend a little time reading up on intellectual Christians, who have some good stuff and would be worth your time in my opinion. With your permission I would like to get your email from jack so that I could let you know my thoughts of the books when I finish them.
Even though broken record (aka sponge, who I read through your quoting of him and find that he is still up to the same ignorance and bashing of Bush) revels in the fact that you are ?difficult for me to deal with? because you have already made up your mind, doesn?t mean it is a good thing. To ask questions for another sides view without ever having an open mind to consider their answers is futile. I can honestly say that when I asked you a question about the universe, even though I knew you had no answer for it, if you would have given me an answer I definitely would have thought it over and had an open mind to it. I would not have gone to my automatic response of that is wrong because God exists. Which seems to be your only response to many of my answers (with exception of evolution and then you stated science has much evidence to support your belief which I can respect, also dealing with scriptures you did have a couple legit concerns with my answer and I felt like I answered your questions about those). I understand you don?t think my answers are correct but if you don?t believe in Christianity because nobody could give you valid answers to those questions, well then tell me which answers are not valid. But that is no longer the case, you didn?t care what the answers were to those questions because you have already made up your mind that there is absolutely no God, and you have done a lot of research and thought to come to that conclusion and I respect that, but I would hope you would agree that though they do not prove there is a God, they are at least valid answers and that these questions cannot only be answered with ?because God isn?t real?.
My goal was always to give those with an open mind some valid answers to tough questions that they may have struggled with in their own lives. I would also hope that I have changed your opinion that ALL Christians are either uneducated, or educated but shielding themselves from the fear of death, that some of us understand many viewpoints and are not just na?ve, but that we have answers to the tough questions of life and they are valid answers.
I can honestly say that I have witnessed many debates, both live and recorded, between well versed, educated Christians, debating with well versed educated atheists (both having phd?s and or books, not joe off the street) and the atheists more often than not, are the ones that don?t have answers( yet alone valid answers) to the questions asked during the debate. (Of course me saying that probably holds as much weight for you, as you telling me about all the evidence science has regarding earths earliest stages and life forms, which is to say, not much)
So as the debate is coming to a close I wanted to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about all of this Gary, it means a lot to me and I have enjoyed it quite a bit this past week, and by the view count of the thread I can tell many are interested as well.
-Brad
Thanks Brad. I'm glad you enjoyed the debate as much as I. Please feel free to get my addy from Jack.
I'm definitely biased in my views and that is why the books I referenced all support atheism (to an extent, at least). However, I'm open to reading opposing viewpoints. The caveat being that it better be solid or I'll lose interest fast. I think you'll like reading Sam Harris (even as a believer), so if you have someone that is equally entertaining, I'm game.
Take care,
Gary
I'm definitely biased in my views and that is why the books I referenced all support atheism (to an extent, at least). However, I'm open to reading opposing viewpoints. The caveat being that it better be solid or I'll lose interest fast. I think you'll like reading Sam Harris (even as a believer), so if you have someone that is equally entertaining, I'm game.
Take care,
Gary
I don't mean to throw salt here, but technically, with the notion of phantom pain (amputees still having pain where there arm or leg once was) wouldn't an opponet say "Why does God let Amputees STILL have pain where the object (arm or leg) doesn't exist???"
there is a pain called phantom pain. It happens with victims who are amputees. THey feel sensations of pain where their ligaments and arm used to be. In reality there is no arm or ligaments. This is the brain realizing something is wrong and yet still produces pain receptors (somehow) where there is no arm.
SO what I was saying is the original question of the thread says "Why won't God Heal Amputees"? SO given phantom pain, one could say "Why does God still give pain to amputees when it shouldn't happen"
I'm aware of the phenomena of phantom pain, I just couldn't figure out what you were getting at. The title of this post is about prayers and miracles: Better said, if God exists and listens to prayers, how come the prayers of amputees are NEVER answered? Amputees are used because it is a black and white case for the "power" of prayer. This was never intended to be a discussion about amputees, but the philosophy behind atheist beliefs.
