Can Irish Win It All?

[mcity]

Vols kick the chit out of you guys in a couple weeks

you better find a QB first. :weed:

I'm going to that game vol....have a brother who is a huge tenn. fan and he has never been to a game at ND (hates ND) so we are going to have our version of the civil war on nov. 5th. Tenn. is more than capable of beating us.....with that "D" and riggs running the ball, it'll be a good one I hope. What's your take on this weekend with 'bama? I was thinking of taking the 3.5.....'bama looked so suspect this past weekend at ole miss.....I think they really miss prothro. Talk to you later.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Vols kick the chit out of you guys in a couple weeks

Good Point. Gonna be tough for the Irish to get up for a mid tier SEC team with Navy on deck.

Better bring 5 QB's up from Knoxville - You'll need 'em.

 

[volfan]

Dont want to jinx TN but feel their offense finds the end zone a few times this weekend

I like TN(big surprise) and over...
GL...

 

[Scott4USC]

LINK TO LEINART PIC

What if Leinart DIDN'T fumble? It would have been a TD USC. Ever think about that? Were the Irish "fortunate" that Leinart fumbled? There is no way the ball went out past the 2 yard line.

Maybe the fumble out of bounds was a good call because of the fact any ball that goes out of bounds by a bat, kick or the defender's momentum backwards places the ball back to where the runner lost control. He lost control 6 inches from the goal line. %the ball went out of Leinart's hand because of the defender knocking it back (as opposed to it going out of bounds around the 3-yard line). The ball went out of Leinart's hand because of the defender knocking it back (as opposed to it going out of bounds around the 3-yard line).

As for Reggie Bush pushing Leinart. YES HE DID and technically IT IS AGAINST THE RULES! However, Bush was NOT bulldozing Leinart. He shoved him. Leinart scoring I think was more of a result of him spinning and his fall carried him over. Bush clearly helped Leinart moving forward instead of being stuffed. All in all, Bush gave Matt just enough of a bump causing Matt to spin and tumble into the end zone. That is exactly what the camera showed. Lineman do this all the time, but in a more blatant manner. Refs never call it. Something else to chew on. When Leinart crossed the goal line, BUSH was not even in sight! People are acting like Bush was standing behind Leinart pushing him in and falling into the endzone with Leinart. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN!

There is no official in the country that is going to make that call in that circumstance. Just like in NBA for final shot and player driving to hoop. What official is going to call a foul?

Instead of saying USC cheated and taking away what a great game 2 historic programs played. why not praise USC. USC is a team that did what they had to do to win. Leinart completed the long pass to Jarrett when he had to, and went do or die his way into the endzone with the game on the line. ND had 2 weeks to prepare and Weis been looking at this game since last Feb. while USC has battled $hit load of injuries and week after week takes everyones best shot. USC went into ND and came out with a win in a VERY hostile environment. I think every team in the country would have lost to ND last Sat. ND is a damn good team, extremely well coached, hostile environment, and like Pete Carroll said after the game. "I can't wait to get out of here"

As for Pete Carroll refusing Instant Replay. Had nothing to do with Pac 10 refs @South Bend. In fact, Pac 10 refs have screwed USC 4 times in challenges this year and 3/4 the Pac 10 stated the refs were WRONG in their decisions that went against USC. SO please spare me the refs favor USC or Carrroll refused instant replay because of the refs. Carroll always said he hates it because it ruins the flow of the game. He decided not to have it before the season started and will always choose not to have it when given the option. Carroll said this year officials can't even get the calls right after REVIEWING them. So now Carroll hates it even more! I am "starting" to agree although I still favor instant replay.

It is quite clear that not much separates the top 10 (ND included) The bottom line is Champions make plays when they have to, and along the way need a little luck. That is the beauty of college football. To win a National Championship there is very litlle margin of error, and you have to be ready to bring it every week. USC has the heart of a champion and each week gets the job done while getting every opponents best shot!

IMO, USC has only themselves to blame for the game being so close. No excuses dropping 5 wide open passes (2/5 would have gone for 20+ yards). No excuses to give up a punt return for a TD. No excuses to turn the ball over 1st and 10 on ND 11 yard line down 7pts. No excuses for Leinart INT that was thrown RIGHT to the ND player with no USC player around (it was a blown audible) USC is sooo good that they overcame these obstacles on the road in HOSTILE environment against an elite team who has been preparing for this game for MONTHS!

I warn everybody here at Madjacks. USC is a 2h team. DUH! Everyone knows that now. USC is also a 2nd half team in terms of the regular season. You only can beat USC in the 1h of season. Carroll coached teams improve EVERY year after each game. USC will be a machine in November and their bowl game. Whoever plays USC in Novemer, December, or Jan. will not be playing the same USC team that has played in Sept. and Oct. This is setting up perfectly. I can see USC now being a -3 or less favorite over Texas in the Rose Bowl. Happens every year! People will point to USC's close games against Oregon, ASU and ND and say Texas is real football team in real conference. Pac 10 sucks. bla bla bla USC will be a machine in the 2h of the season. Leinart will also be concussion free which he still slowly recovering from. Now USC finally gets a stretch of 3 opponents who should not be very competitive. USC will finally be able to create some more depth and get players back from injuries. USC D has been injury depleted in the 1h of season and they have played OUTSTANDING given the circumstances. USC D should be rolling at the end of the season. USC O just needs to fine tune some areas.

Pinnacle has USC -200 now to win the BCS NC.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Scott - You're a jackass... Do you watch the USC games with blinders on.

ND didn't have injuries??? Their top receiver has been out for weeks. ND also blew opportunities, like Quinn overthrowing A. Swhapp when he was wide open for the first down and he was just three feet from him, or Fassano fumbling the ball when ND could have put the game away or Stovall dropping two open passes for first downs, etc... etc... Etc...

Lienart didn't BREAK the plain for the touchdown. He was about a yard short. That is one THING you can definitely say... I'm not sure were the ball should have been placed because I haven 't seen a clear camera view... So I just ASSUME the ref's got it right. THAT was an ILLEGAL play by BUSH... He EVEN ADDMITTED to it by saying it took all of his 210 POUNDS to push him in..........................................

Who CARES? Weis even said he would hope his running back would do the SAME thing. I'm not blaming the officials for the loss. ND had it's chance to stop them when it was 3rd and 20 and 4th and 9...

Don't sit there and say that Carroll continues to get screwed by instant replay. If there is blantant evidence that a wrong call has occured it will be overturned. Carroll is a puss and didn't want it because there was PAC 10 officals covering the game.

Again, I thought the officials call a fair game giving each team a couple of breaks. Their should have been instant replay, but who cares the game is over and USC won a squeaker. All I care about now is picking winners and the Cougars this weekend. I hope USC goes undefeated so the media can't say USC is overrated just like every other team ND has played.

 

[TouchdownJesus]

I think Bush pushed the hell out of him and I also think without Bush, Leinhart doesn't score.
Overall I just wish the ball would have been spotted at least at the 2. I know Carroll says he was going for the win no matter what, but its a lot easier to do that when all you have to do is sneak it.
I would like to have seen the decisions made if they were at the 2. I believe they would have still gone for it, but at least they would have had to run some kind of play, run or pass, and not a sneak.
Also, its kind of funny, and I don't think mentioned in all of this. The "fake spike" signal. I don't think Notre Dame relaxed and there was no reason to anyway.
The clock wasn't going to start until the snap and everyone knew it. If they were going to kick a FG, they prob. would have taken the penalty to give the kicker a better angle.

One good thing that may come out of this, for ND. I think they are going to be pretty good for years to come. But I hope Weis always has some extra motivation for USC. Hopefully a decade from now, people will say that this game proved Weis could play with anyone and that he never lost to USC again...or even just that he had a 8-2 record or whatever.

 

[TouchdownJesus]

Pt1Gard, yeah I've lost a lot of that "having a favorite team" over the years. Sucks to get older, sucks to have all the free agency, etc. Used to be a huge Cowboys fan until Landry was fired. I was about 16 at the time.
The 2 biggest constants I have kept is Notre Dame (esp. in football) and Carolina (in both sports).
I've been waiting for this game ever since halftime of ND/Mich. when I knew ND was "back". I didn't know how good they were, but I could see a lot of changes in such a short time. After seeing almost no offense under Willingham, the offense looked great. Defense seemed fairly good, with questions in the secondary.
I knew they were at home and with each game, esp. Purdue, they looked ready for a big upset. Throw in 2 weeks to prepare and those green jerseys and I was all set.
After 14-7, I thought well USC might be too powerful. But, both drives were on a short field. After that punt return, I knew ND had a great chance.
4th and 9 play was a killer at the end. #9 (safety) seemed out of position all night, including there. Corner almost knocked it away. Its like the pass was the epitome of perfection. But the safety should have been there to deliver a hit, either knock the ball away or at least make it a 25 yard gain, and not a 60 yd.
But, a great game.
I think they'll beat BYU, but I doubt I put any money on that, either way.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Pt1Gard, yeah I've lost a lot of that "having a favorite team" over the years. Sucks to get older, sucks to have all the free agency, etc. Used to be a huge Cowboys fan until Landry was fired. I was about 16 at the time.
The 2 biggest constants I have kept is Notre Dame (esp. in football) and Carolina (in both sports).
I've been waiting for this game ever since halftime of ND/Mich. when I knew ND was "back". I didn't know how good they were, but I could see a lot of changes in such a short time. After seeing almost no offense under Willingham, the offense looked great. Defense seemed fairly good, with questions in the secondary.
I knew they were at home and with each game, esp. Purdue, they looked ready for a big upset. Throw in 2 weeks to prepare and those green jerseys and I was all set.
After 14-7, I thought well USC might be too powerful. But, both drives were on a short field. After that punt return, I knew ND had a great chance.
4th and 9 play was a killer at the end. #9 (safety) seemed out of position all night, including there. Corner almost knocked it away. Its like the pass was the epitome of perfection. But the safety should have been there to deliver a hit, either knock the ball away or at least make it a 25 yard gain, and not a 60 yd.
But, a great game.
I think they'll beat BYU, but I doubt I put any money on that, either way.

#9 is Tom Zibikowski and he is arguably their best defensive player. He has a tendency to bite on play action, but he was one of reasons why ND was IN the game. He cause the fumble at the goaline, made solid tackles throughout the game, and not to mention return a punt for a TD.

 

[Scott4USC]

ND didn't have injuries??? Their top receiver has been out for weeks. ....

Was ND D without their #1 and #3 DB's? (Wright and Thomas) Was ND without their #1 DT? (Wright) Was ND without their starting LB (Sartz) His backup is Cushing who also is injured! Was ND out with their #1 nickel back in D? (Ellison) These are the injuries and players missing that were suppose to be playing! It is amazing how competitive USC D is this season with all the losses they took to player leaving for NFL or graduation. Then on top of players leaving in off season and injuries during the season. The players on USC D are made up mostly of 1st time starters!

ND also blew opportunities, like Quinn overthrowing A. Swhapp when he was wide open for the first down and he was just three feet from him, or Fassano fumbling the ball when ND could have put the game away or Stovall dropping two open passes for first downs, etc... etc... Etc

I agree. Both teams didn't play a perfect game. Both teams missed opportunities. But both teams played great overall and deserved to win. I wish both teams could play each other again this year. Sucks 1 team had to lose. USC clearly made it harder on themselves especially when you consider they were the team playing in the hostile environment. Home teams can make mistakes and get away with it. Road teams CAN'T! USC almost lost!

USC dropped 5 wide open passes. USC WR's don't have history of dropping passes. (prob. due to hostile environment) USC gave up punt return. That is 7pts but special teams are part of the game but I feel you NEVER should give up punt or kickoff returns. EVER! Then USC has 1st and 10 on ND 11 and throws INT where the ball goes up in air and ND player runs right under it. BAD play by USC and lucky break for ND! But there is a photo of that play in newspaper where it shows the ND DB ramming right into the USC WR (#2 Smith) before the ball arrived. Then Leinart throws the INT where no USC player was around. Bonehead move or player didn't get the audible. But remember, Leianrt is not 100% mentally and is playing with minor consussion. This is a fact! A QB can't make quick reads with his mind not 100% sharp. ND benefitied great with the ASU player took cheap shot against Leianrt which gave him a minor concussion. Leinart has never been the same since! But he will recover and Leinart is a champion because he is still productive even if he isn't playing his "A" game.

Lienart didn't BREAK the plain for the touchdown. He was about a yard short. That is one THING you can definitely say... I'm not sure were the ball should have been placed because I haven 't seen a clear camera view... So I just ASSUME the ref's got it right. THAT was an ILLEGAL play by BUSH... He EVEN ADDMITTED to it by saying it took all of his 210 POUNDS to push him in..........................................

On the fumble play, Leinart clearly fumbled before breaking the plain. I agree! However, if Leinart DIDN'T fumble, USC clealry would have scored a TD on that play. All I said was ND was fortunate they forced the fumble on that play because Leinart would have scored.

Don't sit there and say that Carroll continues to get screwed by instant replay. If there is blantant evidence that a wrong call has occured it will be overturned. Carroll is a puss and didn't want it because there was PAC 10 officals covering the game.

:nono: :nono: :nono:

1st q USC forced Oregon to punt. They punted and the ball hit USC player in foot and everyone jumped on the ball. Officials ruled USC ball. Then comes instant replay review. Fine. But EVERY camera angle showed NO USC and NO OREGON player with possession of the ball. YOU COULDN'T EVEN SEE THE BALL! :mj07: Officials trot out and say the ball hit USC player in foot and conclusive evidence shows Oregon recovered the ball. Pac 10 commissioner said that was wrong call! Oregon gets ball inside USC territory. Easily could have cost USC the game.

Then the next week USC plays @ASU. 1q USC driving and throws huge pass play to Bush. Bush CLEARLY caught the ball with the ball not moving in his hands. Bush's hand was underneath the ball when fell to ground. Official calls replay review, fine! Ref trots out and says conclusive evidence Bush had no possesion. Pac 10 commissioner said that was the WRONG call. USC doesn't get 1st and goal, they get ball back at 40 and get nothing on the drive. Could easily have cost USC the game.

Both examples USC had the refs make the call USC favor, and both examples the refs overturned it. To overturn a call, there MUST be conclusive evidence.

Same game against ASU, the ASU player clearly stepped out of bounds on his own. Refs looked it over in instant replay and said USC player pushed him. Completely BOGUS! USC player was running next to him but never pushed him. ASU got 20 yard pass from it and scored TD on next couple plays. BOGUS!

Against Arkansas Dwane Jarret caught the ball, put both feet down in endzone, and then dropped the ball. Refs called it TD. After replay, they said conclusive evidence Jarret did not have possession. But remember, this was in the ENDZONE not regular field of play. There is no conclusive evidence Jarret had no possession. Another example where refs overturned call against USC.

I like to throw in UCLA as well against CAL. Another example where Pac 10 refs went into instant replay and fawked up. CAL got a TD out of it. UCLA could have lost because of instant replay.

I am now starting to have the opinion INSTANT REPLAY doesn't work. I was for it 100% for it prior to the season. But now I am starting to be against it because these Refs are BONEHEADS! I know it stops the flow of the game and I am ok with it if it means getting the right call. But if you have instant replay and still make the wrong call, than it has to go! It is BULL$HIT! USC has been screwed royally from it. That is a fact and Pac 10 has stated so! BTW instant Replay would not have come into play on Bush's push to Leinart but might have come into play on the fumble. Ball might have been placed on 1 or 2 yard line.

Again, I thought the officials call a fair game giving each team a couple of breaks. Their should have been instant replay, but who cares the game is over and USC won a squeaker. All I care about now is picking winners and the Cougars this weekend. I hope USC goes undefeated so the media can't say USC is overrated just like every other team ND has played.

From the stands it looked like officials called fair game with both teams getting bad calls against them. Although I still have yet to watch the game on TV. So I reserve my opinion. I heard USC got screwed royally with that PF when USC stopped ND on their own 10. Also been told USC DE's were being held all game by ND OL. ND might have been screwed on the PF on USC 2nd to last TD drive. There was ZERO evidence of ND PF play but some think refs called the wrong # becuase of the ZERO evidence. But I have not seen it on TV yet.

ND has great coach and is headed in right direction. I'll say it again. What I saw from Pete Carroll in year 1 is what I am seeing from ND and Weis. I came onto MJ's and said Carroll is building a DYNASTY at USC and was laughed at by everyone. I got the last laugh! I see the exact same thing happening for ND. USC and ND will be costing each other National Championships as long as Weis and Carroll are the coaches. Take it to the bank! ND will contend for NC next season. For some reason, I cheer for ND! But if USC lost on Sat. then I might have developed a hatred for them like my Dad has. Dad still is not over the ND win streak in the 80/90's.

 

[kosar]

On the fumble play, Leinart clearly fumbled before breaking the plain. I agree! However, if Leinart DIDN'T fumble, USC clealry would have scored a TD on that play. All I said was ND was fortunate they forced the fumble on that play because Leinart would have scored.

How do you figure he would have scored? He was spinning sideways/backwards like a whirlybird from the two defenders that hit him. There's no way he would have scored and the clock would have ran out if he didn't fumble.

Also, don't get all excited about a USC -3 spread if they are undefeated and play an undefeated Texas in the Rose Bowl. The spread would open 7 minimum, probably closing around 10.

 

[snoozer]

getting back to the original question... even if every team ahead on ND lost, I suspect some of those teams would stay ahead of ND in the BCS. If you remember, the point of the BCS is to not punish 1 late season loss teams more than a team who lost early.

A 1 loss USC team, or 1 loss Texas team would go to the national championship ahead of a 2 loss ND team.

 

[Scott4USC]

How do you figure he would have scored? He was spinning sideways/backwards like a whirlybird from the two defenders that hit him. There's no way he would have scored and the clock would have ran out if he didn't fumble.

Look at the picture more closely.

LINK TO LEINART PIC

He would easily have fallen into the endzone. Look at the picture! Leinarts "knees" prob. would have hit the plain. The ND player made great play in stripping the ball out of Leinart. Othewise it is an easy TD for USC.

Also, don't get all excited about a USC -3 spread if they are undefeated and play an undefeated Texas in the Rose Bowl. The spread would open 7 minimum, probably closing around 10.

I see a lot of people saying Texas should be the real #1 team. I think USC will be -3 or less. There is a lot of football left to be played. I am banking on USC to play their usual 2h season football. Right now I "think" USC would prob. have a 60% probability in beating Texas SU. But I am predicting USC to have a 85% prob. of beating Texas in Jan. provided USC plays their usual 2h season football and improves like they always do! I won't know the answer to that until December!

Not sure I would take USC higher than 7pts over Texas. I did take USC -6.5 over Michigan 2 years ago.

 

[bamafan]

ND has been given a National Championship before (and I use given loosely, as it was decided differently back then.) But in 1969 an undefeated Bama team was leap frogged by a Notre Dame team with a lesser record. It is a known fact that ND has always been loved (or favored) by the press and media, so I don't think that it is at all absurd to think that they may "given" another chance at the title (all of that is not going to happen anyway, but for sake of argument.) And no, I am not a bitter Bama fan as I'm sure everyone will say (I wasn't even thought of in 1969). My point is just that ND has always been overranked (and I don't mean the years that they were dominant and deserving of NCs.) Close or not, deserving or not, they still have 2 losses (against very good teams yes), but 2 losses none the less and I'm sorry that is undeserving of a Championship shot in my eyes unless about 8 other good teams end up with 2 losses at the end of the year. (JMO)

 

[kosar]

Look at the picture more closely.

LINK TO LEINART PIC

He would easily have fallen into the endzone. Look at the picture! Leinarts "knees" prob. would have hit the plain. The ND player made great play in stripping the ball out of Leinart. Othewise it is an easy TD for USC.




I see a lot of people saying Texas should be the real #1 team. I think USC will be -3 or less. There is a lot of football left to be played. I am banking on USC to play their usual 2h season football. Right now I "think" USC would prob. have a 60% probability in beating Texas SU. But I am predicting USC to have a 85% prob. of beating Texas in Jan. provided USC plays their usual 2h season football and improves like they always do! I won't know the answer to that until December!

Not sure I would take USC higher than 7pts over Texas. I did take USC -6.5 over Michigan 2 years ago.

That picture does not tell the story. Watch the video and see where he lands. The ball was in his left hand, behind him, and he was spinning sideways/backwards. It looks to me that the ball would have landed on the half yard line at best.

Who cares what 'a lot of people' are saying about Texas? If they are both undefeated, that line would not open at less than 7. Probably more.

As to the person that wanted to 'get back to the subject', well, it was a dumb question to begin with. There's not a one in a million shot of ND getting into the NC game. It's not possible.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Have you ever read a thread where there is so much disinformation, falsehoods and lies coming from all different directions by so many posters that you can't even begin to address them all?

 

[Scott4USC]

That picture does not tell the story. Watch the video and see where he lands. The ball was in his left hand, behind him, and he was spinning sideways/backwards. It looks to me that the ball would have landed on the half yard line at best. .

Wasn't Leinart laying in the endzone? Didn't the official first start to signal TOUCHDOWN but then stopped once he saw Leinart didn't have the ball? Leinart would have scored a TD if ND didn't force the fumble. Props to ND D.

 

[TouchdownJesus]

I do hate that there is no rule put in for fumbling out of bounds there.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. If Leinhart fumbled forward, into the end zone, and another player recovered...would it have been a TD? I don't think so, but not sure. I know most rules pretty good. Seems like its one of those rules just in the last 2 minutes of half. Due to things like the holy roller.

But, anyway, main reason to reply right here is that does anyone remember 1993? Notre Dame dominates Florida State for most of the game. FSU does comeback from a 14-point deficit to have a semi-hailmary to try to tie/win it on the last play. Notre Dame loses on a last second field goal to BC in last game and a 1-loss FSU ends up winning national championship over a 1-loss ND team.
The polls are so stupid. Such crap that all this money is poured in to college football by fans, and we can't get a true champion.
But what I'm saying is ND doesn't always get bias. Lets see, we've got 2 great 1-loss teams. How can we tell who should be #1? Well, ND beat FSU and FSU plays in a weak conference to begin with. But Bobby really needs his first title, so we'll ignore the head to head result.
Again, a playoff is needed.

 

[Scott4USC]

That picture does not tell the story. Watch the video and see where he lands. The ball was in his left hand, behind him, and he was spinning sideways/backwards. It looks to me that the ball would have landed on the half yard line at best. .

I watched the last 2 min. of the game late last night. The official signaled TOUCHDOWN when Leinart was laying in the endzone. As soon as he noticed Leinart didn't have the ball, he put his hands down. So I think this argument is closed. I am now 100% positive that USC would have scored a TD if ND did not make the great play of forcing Leinart to fumble. Props to ND D.

 

[Dice34]

If there was a fool out there who didn't watch the game for some reason, they would of seen the score the next day in a newspaper or on the bottom of espn.

It would of read USC 34- ND 31. No asterick by anything. USC wins, ND loses. Get over it.... A win is a win, a loss is a loss..... ND has a chance if all the undefeated's end up with 2 losses. So basically no chance.

All the BS about that and this, mean nothing after the game is over and put in the books.

If you really want to make an arguement, what about the USC coach that was down by the goaline, clearly out of the box trying to signal for a time out when they had none. BUt you know what it doesn't matter especially to the fool that didn't watch the game. Game over, next topic.

 

[TouchdownJesus]

I never said the game should have an asterick. I just felt robbed. I'm over it as much as I will ever be over it.
As for the timeout being called by an assistant coach. I would have really hated for anything to have been called on that. The clock was running out in the heat of the moment he called it. If the clock was officially running, then it would not have mattered. You could penalize the 80 yards, b/c they weren't going to get to run another play.
Since the clock was supposed to be stopped but was running, you can't call it. He reacted to something that was flawed.

I am a huge North Carolina fan. Remember the game last year with all the controversy at the end? Did T.A. get in?
Well, I thougtht it was hilarious but also shitty. I haven't seen proof one way or the other whether he got in, and State did get another play from inside the 1.
If I had seen proof that he got in, I would have wanted State to win the game.
What I'm saying is that if Notre Dame had won the way USC did, I'd accept it and move on, but would rather USC gotten the W.
As for UNC/State, yeah I still think that game's ending is hilarious but one reason for that is b/c Bunting and Amato have made a mockery of the game of football. Especially Amato. Its absolutely disgraceful.