Can Irish Win It All?

[gman2]

Yeah - Having a high powered defense really matters. :mj07:

diapers:

im really surprised you just typed these words.
i dont need to whip out the cliches, but even the miami, floridas, and fsus of the 90s had dominant defenses. no title-worthy team has a defense thats ranked near the bottom 100.

whats funny is that, as mentioned earlier, EVEN THE NOTRE DAME MEDIA have said they are not ready to compete for a national title yet but in the next few years, they will be if weis can get his defense up to par, then the irish will be in great shape.

but of course every fan thinks they can get by with a porous defense as long as they can outscore the opposition.

whens the last time the national championship has been decided in a shootout?

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

GMan - USC will win this years championship and would hardly consider them to have a dominant defense.

The face of college football is changing. Their are more complex offenses in college football than in years past. That is why people are moving away from the wishbone and simple I formations.

Tenn. was suppose to have a great defense. But in reallity they don't. They face simple schemes in the SEC and while they have great athletes they faced offensive schemes that don't exist in the SEC. Quinn carved them up for 2 and half quarters. I will take ND offense against anybody's defense this year. We might give up some points, but OUR defense is young and improving and will only get better.

 

[Scott4USC]

the top 10 teams in the country, in no particular order, have defenses ranked:

1st
2nd
3rd
6th
7th
8th
12th
14th
41st

......and 86th

care to guess whose defense ranks 86th?
incidentally, their ranking at 86th puts them behind lockdown defenses such as:

buffalo
unlv
east carolina
utah state
minnesota
louisiana-monroe

Don't put a whole lot of stock into national rankings. If a team plays great offenses, their D isn't going to be ranked very high statistically. Same with a team who plays weak offenses (V-Tech) their D is going to be ranked very high.

ND played 4 of their first 5 games ON THE ROAD! After that difficult task, they played the #1 ranked team in the country in a rivaly game.

I am sure if ND played Texas schedule, they would have better STATS then they have now! Texas played only 2 road games out of their first 7 games! They played schools like La Lafayette and Rice. Missouri, OU, and Ohio St. sure have powerful offenses!

I use Texas as an example because they are the #2 ranked team.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

BTW - This is probably the dumbest thread ever created. ND will NOT win it all they have TWO losses so they won?t be in the NC. But they will be in a BCS bowl and with one year under Weis tutelage and with a month to prepare for the opponent I really like our chances.

 

[gman2]

the face of college football has been changing for almost a decade now. but these teams arent re-inventing the wheel. even a guy like urban meyer, who has some of the most sophisticated offensive schemes you could ever imagine, is winning with defense at florida right now.

the more things change, the more they stay the same. check the numbers on the florida teams with spurrier in the 90s. sure they scored points, but they had an equally good defense. weis is an incredible offensive mind but he's got a ways to go before he's close to spurriers level. even the ball coach knew that championships are won with defense in the end. and weis is no idiot -- he'll have the defense fixed in a matter of 2 years.

every stat is going to be skewed in some way.
but they provide us with a starting point.
if you tinker with their schedule, they probably move from 86th to about 50th or 60th.
the reality is that notre dame's defense is porous.
in a few years, it will catch up to the offense. but for now, it is lagging well behind the offense.
i dont get why thats so offensive to notre dame fans.
you dont turn around a program in 6 months.
their defense needs a lot of help, and once they get that help, they will be a legit title contender again.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Weis is not even close to Spurrier offensive mind LOL - That has got to be the single most retarded thing I have ever heard. Weis is considered to be the best offensive mind in football (Just listen to people from the NFL).

The fact is ND defense is not that bad as you keep saying. They are young, but extremely fast, and a lot of them were ranked high coming out of high school.
V. Abiarmari was ranked the #1 DE from Rivals Junior
T. Zibby was ranked #5 athlete in the nation Junior
A. Wooden was ranked #3 CB in the nation Sophmore
D. Talley was ranked in the top 10 Sophmore
T. Laws Dt was ranked in the top 10 Sophmore
A. Vernaglia was ranked #2 TE and top 10 as a Safety
T. Lambert ranked in the top 10 as a corner
B. Hoyte was ranked #25 LB in Rivals
M. Crum Jr. was ranked #30 LB

Etc.. Etc...

ND Offense is ranked 7th in the Nation


ND Defense has faced:

#1 ranked scoring offense USC
#11 ranked MSU
#25 ranked BYU
#50 ranked Michigan
#55 ranked Purdue
#90 ranked Washington (Dont worry it will only take Ty 10 more years to install his west coast offense).

Texas defense has faced:
#3 Texas Tech (Who hasn't faced anyone except Texas)
#32 Ohio State
#97 Rice
#81 Lousiana Lafayete
#100 Olk St.
#96 Baylor

 

[Scott4USC]

Not accusing g-man2 of saying this but I have read people say Urban Meyers great offense can't work in the SEC because the SEC plays great defense. Urban is one of the best offensive minded coaches etc etc etc.

Norm Chow is is considered the #1 OC in CFB came to USC his offense didn't work at all in the Pac 10. It STUNK! Norm, Pete, and staff tweaked it in off-season to make it work in the Pac 10. Urban will have to do the same thing to make it work in the SEC.

But why didn't people say how tough the Pac 10 D's were? Urban O doesn't work in year 1 @FL SEC is so tough. Chows O doesn't work in year 1 at USC and Pac 10 D's suck? EAST COAST BIAS!

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

DIRTY Diapers

Who is the better offensive coordinator, Weis or Chow? Tough question. :mj03: Weis is def. the better HC/HC material, but tough to say who is the better OC. BTW I am very very impressed with Weis has HC for ND. Although I would not have inked him to that 10 year contract yet.

 

[gman2]

diapers:

wording was poor on my part. meant that weis has a ways to go before hes on spurrier's level as far as what hes accomplished as a coach. weis is an incredibly bright offensive mind. that said, he still hasnt accomplished anything as a head coach. he's got some rings in the nfl, but so does dave wannstedt. weis will be fine. im sure of that. but spurrier has won a million more games as a head coach than weis and even the ball coach knows that your championships are won with defense. weis would be wise to follow suit, and im sure he will.

as far as the rankings of the players for nd coming out of high school- for now, theyre just that.... rankings. we'll see how they turn out in two years.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Gman - I thought you meant that but I had to make sure. BTW - please dont compare Wannstache to Weis.

Scott - Weis vs. Chow who is a better off. coord. That is a tough question - I will take Weis because he has done it at the highest level. Will Chow be able to do it in the pros - probably we will just have to wait and see...

We had to sign him to a 10 year ext. or other colleges would be using "Weis will be in the pros" against us in recruiting.

 

[DerekNJND]

diapers:

im really surprised you just typed these words.
i dont need to whip out the cliches, but even the miami, floridas, and fsus of the 90s had dominant defenses. no title-worthy team has a defense thats ranked near the bottom 100.

whats funny is that, as mentioned earlier, EVEN THE NOTRE DAME MEDIA have said they are not ready to compete for a national title yet but in the next few years, they will be if weis can get his defense up to par, then the irish will be in great shape.

but of course every fan thinks they can get by with a porous defense as long as they can outscore the opposition.

whens the last time the national championship has been decided in a shootout?

HMMMMM last year when over 70 points were scored :mj07:

 

[DerekNJND]

the top 10 teams in the country, in no particular order, have defenses ranked:

1st
2nd
3rd
6th
7th
8th
12th
14th
41st

......and 86th

care to guess whose defense ranks 86th?
incidentally, their ranking at 86th puts them behind lockdown defenses such as:

buffalo
unlv
east carolina
utah state
minnesota
louisiana-monroe

GMAN, you are TOO INTELLIGENT to stoop to an argument that weak. Focus on what my post said, LOOK at what these teams have done ON THE FIELD, week after week, not just winning and losing, and defense rankings and offense rankings. You know what? I dont care if ND had the WORST defense in ncaa football. That still doesnt mean they dont belong in the top 10. Do you think the pollsters give a hoot what RANK our DEFENSE HAS?? HELL NO, they just vote on how a team played, if they won or lost, who they played, etc. They dont say, Oh look ND ranks eighty whatever in defense, I cant vote for them...lol..gman you are better than that WEAK ARGUMENT man.

 

[gman2]

HMMMMM last year when over 70 points were scored :mj07:

not even gonna dignify this with a response. youre smarter than that derek.

 

[gman2]

furthermore derek, never once did i say that notre dame doesnt deserve to be in the top 10. my point was that you dont contend for national championships with a mediocre defense like that. their offense is top 5-caliber. their defense is top 25 caliber. you irish fans need to enjoy the ride right now. theyre a million times better than they were last year. but theyre not without holes. theyre a solid team. but theyre just not national championship caliber yet. give it two years.

 

[Scott4USC]

USC D dominated the Orange Bowl. But prior to the OB, many posters here thought USC D was weak because they play in the Pac 10 and Pac 10 offenses put big stats against USC D. I can quote numerous posters here who said Peterson would easily rush over 100 yards against USC and some said over 200 yards! WEAK PAC 10 D!

:lol2 :lol2 :lol2

Same could be said about ND D. They are not nearly as bad as you would think if you just looked at the stats. Focus on who they played and where they played.

 

[DerekNJND]

BUT something they DO VOTE ON, which is what I mentioned in my first post, is how the games are played. Did you get blown out or did you lose in OT? Did you have the lead the whole game then lose it as time expired? Were you down 3 tds and rally to force OT?? Were you COMPETITIVE in the GAME at ALL TIMES? Thats what ND has the ability to do, be competitive in ANY game. Its a quality that only few teams have this year, OSU, PSU, MIAMI, USC, TEXAS, and it separates ND from the other teams you listed with bad defense. If anything, its a tribute to our offense, strategy, and SPECIAL TEAMS that we can be so competitive w/o great defense

If you wanna talk defense, why talk about YARDAGE ALLOWED?? that is the most PATHETIC way to rate a defensive squad's ability. NY Giants, one of the worst defenses in the NFL if you go by yardage. But they're definately one of the top 5 teams in the NFL right now, why? Because YARDAGE does not EQUAL POINTS.

You wanna talk meaningful stats, show me how many turnovers we've forced in the red zone. I can name FIVE TIMES w/o even thinking hard that our defense has forced a turnover when a team had the ball inside the 10 yard line. Four fumbles and one INT, and I'm sure there are plenty more that Im too busy to look up right now. THATS what wins games buddy, not yardage allowed..

 

[DerekNJND]

not even gonna dignify this with a response. youre smarter than that derek.

IT WAS a SHOOTOUT, just a lopsided one. Theres a difference between playing great defense and scoring so many points that the other team doesnt know what hit them. Your point was that defense wins championships, well 55 freakin points helps too, thats the SMARTS of that argument pal

OSU won a championship with defense in 02. HMMM, magically they didnt put up 55 points tho did they??

 

[Scott4USC]

DerekNJND

Good point in yards allowed means very little. Bend but don't break defenses work well in college football. Especially against high powered offenses. Doesn't look good nationally in terms of stats but it works. Don't let teams score quick. That is Carroll's philosophy in Pac 10 play. Make the opponent march down the field and increase their probability of making mistakes. (dropped passes, bad throws, penalties, or TURNOVERS) Once inside the 20's, tighten up. In the 2h make adjustments and throw different defense at them where they can't adjust to your blitz schemes. Works well for USC.

 

[gman2]

scott:

how many times does this have to be beaten into your head-

usc is not a typical pac 10 team. they play east coast football. theyre an anomaly out west. they can beat you multiple ways.

but are you seriously still trying to argue the pac10 has good defense? i dont have a lot more time this afternoon, but why are you doing this to yourself.

yes, the pac10 offenses are good. so naturally the defensive numbers are not going to be as sharp.

but defensive football 101 is about stopping the run and being physical. that is the same in the pac10, sec, and the world league overseas.

arizona just rushed for 315, i repeat 315, yards against ucla last week, a team that is considered the 2nd best in the pac10.

usc is a juggernaut, plain and simple. theyre unlike any team out west. but that doesnt mean the pac10 is a good defensive conference. again, usc would score points in any conference. but enough with the pac10 nonsense.

 

[DerekNJND]

Exactly, it is truly one of the most WORTHLESS stats that are out there. The fact that ND is ranked so high with the 80 whateverTH defense is PROOF that yardage doesnt matter. This is particularly true, with great offenses like ND and USC that spend alot of time in the LEAD. When your team is ahead and scores 40 points almost every week, the defense is gonna bend a little bit. Its not a coincidence that alot of great offenses let up alot of yardage. Just like the NY Giants.

 

[DerekNJND]

scott:

how many times does this have to be beaten into your head-

usc is not a typical pac 10 team. they play east coast football. theyre an anomaly out west. they can beat you multiple ways.

but are you seriously still trying to argue the pac10 has good defense? i dont have a lot more time this afternoon, but why are you doing this to yourself.

yes, the pac10 offenses are good. so naturally the defensive numbers are not going to be as sharp.

but defensive football 101 is about stopping the run and being physical. that is the same in the pac10, sec, and the world league overseas.

arizona just rushed for 315, i repeat 315, yards against ucla last week, a team that is considered the 2nd best in the pac10.

usc is a juggernaut, plain and simple. theyre unlike any team out west. but that doesnt mean the pac10 is a good defensive conference. again, usc would score points in any conference. but enough with the pac10 nonsense.

I dont think his point was that ALL pac 10 teams play great defense. I think he was just saying the got a bad rep and are underrated.