I need some help

[R-7]

What about Wisconsin's 1 loss, which they actually led at half time, AT now Number 2 Michigan...

Do I think Wisky deserves to be in title game, absolutey not, but probably as much as ND.

Schedule weak, yes, but they did kill everyone on it. They did not make the schedule, they just played the games.

 

[Dice34]

The difference is this.

Michigan losing to Ohio St. at the end of the season and then getting a rematch in BCS NC game is rewarding a LOSER!

ND lost to Michigan in SEPT. and will end their season beating #2 BCS team USC @USC.

ND redeems themselves by beating USC and ending their season on high note. IMPRESSIVE!

Michigan ends their season with a LOSS. Not impressive.

Why give Michigan a free pass to BCS NC. They did NOTHING to redeem themselves. That would be rewarding a LOSER!

It is not like ND played an easy schedule. Can't a team improve? CAN A TEAM REDEEM THEMSELVES? You must prove to the country you improved. Lucky for ND, they get to play USC at the end of the season. If ND played TULANE to end the season, well then I would not be arguing for ND to get an opportunity in the BCS NC.

With your "scenario" a rematch between ND and Michigan would be warranted.

I'll save the rebuttal.........OSU will have to argue if they are in after this week, not Michigan:sadwave:

 

[bjfinste]

What about Wisconsin's 1 loss, which they actually led at half time, AT now Number 2 Michigan...

Do I think Wisky deserves to be in title game, absolutey not, but probably as much as ND.

Schedule weak, yes, but they did kill everyone on it. They did not make the schedule, they just played the games.

Even though I'm an alum, I have never thought UW should be in. But they should be higher than ND. Both have played exactly ONE ranked team... hell, it was even the same one. Except ND got steamrolled at home by that team, and UW was in a dogfight into the fourth quarter on the road. A win over a down USC team doesn't erase that.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

Even though I'm an alum, I have never thought UW should be in. But they should be higher than ND. Both have played exactly ONE ranked team... hell, it was even the same one. Except ND got steamrolled at home by that team, and UW was in a dogfight into the fourth quarter on the road. A win over a down USC team doesn't erase that.

I've stayed out of this argument, but now I have to draw the line. Who has Wisconsin beat? Cmon... There schedule is horrible. I defend Wisconsin all of the time. They are always underrated in basketball and football.

Look at their schedule:

09/02 at BGU W 35-14
09/09 W Illinois W 34-10
09/16 SDSU W 14-0
09/23 at #6 Michigan L 27-13
09/30 at Indiana W 52-17
10/07 N'western W 41-9
10/14 Minnesota W 48-12
10/21 at Purdue W 24-3
10/28 Illinois W 30-24
11/04 Penn State W 13-3
11/11 at Iowa W 24-21

I think Wisconsin is a very good team, but if ND beats USC (Big IF) then how in the world can you justify Wisconsin being ahead of ND...

Is Notre Dame better than Michigan? Not this year... But we got screwed out of a NC when we beat FSU (team of the century... Yeah right) and lost to BC the next week and FSU went to the NC... So I have no sympathy for Michigan fans. If you take care of business on Saturday then you don't have to worry about it.

 

[z2000]

Even though I'm an alum, I have never thought UW should be in. But they should be higher than ND. Both have played exactly ONE ranked team... .

Actually, ND beat a Georgia Tech team that is currently rated number 18, so they do have 1 win over a rated team. They may not have been rated when they played them, but how accurate are the pre-season ratings anyways?

 

[R-7]

I am not justifying Wisconsin's schedule. Just saying they beat everyone on it (covered the spread in all but one game I believe), put a hurting on almost everyone. AND at Michigan they were leading at half time, AT Michigan and were in the game solidly into the 2nd half.

ND got whipped, WHIPPED at home vs the same team...

Arkansas, Florida or an unbeaten Rutgers gets in against the winner... I hope to heck it is not Rutgers, although they have had an amazing season.

OSU or Michigan would whip up on ND. (Again) They have Zero Defense. Wisconsin would hold their own, and they did AT Michigan. And the team has only gotten better since. Did anyone say they deserve a shot? No way. But neither does ND.

And by the way, ND's schedule is not pretty. Now, whom would have suspected Mich State and Purdue to be down so far this year...

AND, I think Wisconsin was originally scheduled to play V Tech, but game got cancelled for some reason couple years ago, so bring on the mighty Buffalo. :142smilie

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

I am not justifying Wisconsin's schedule. Just saying they beat everyone on it (covered the spread in all but one game I believe), put a wipping on everyone. AND at Michigan they were leading at half time, AT Michigan and in the game solidly into the 2nd half.

ND got whipped, WHIPPED at home vs the same team...

Arkansas, Florida or an unbeaten Rutgers gets in against the winner... I hope to heck it is not Rutgers, although they have had an amazing season.

OSU or Michigan would whip up on ND. (Again) They have Zero Defense. Wisconsin would hold their own, and they did AT Michigan. And the team has only gotten better since. Did anyone say they deserve a shot? No way. But neither does ND.

And by the way, ND's schedule is not pretty. Now, whom would have suspected Mich State and Purdue to be down so far this year...

AND, I think Wisconsin was originally scheduled to play V Tech, but game got cancelled for some reason couple years ago, so bring on the mighty Buffalo. :142smilie

Comparing teams versus common opponents mean NOTHING...

Wisconsin beat Penn St. 13-3

ND took PSU to the WOODSHED... They were up 42-3 in the fourth quarter then put in the second team...

IF ND beats USC (Big IF) then they would have beat two good teams on the road. Do they deserve a NC bid over Michigan/OSU... NO! But IMO they would deserve it over Wisconsin and Rutgers (Unless Rutgers beats WVU on the road)... There is still a lot of football to be played... Let's see how it plays out.

 

[CWood97]

So then, you're cool with regular season rematches in the national championship game after all? :shrug:

(crickets chirping)

 

[Scott4USC]

So then, you're cool with regular season rematches in the national championship game after all? :shrug:

YES and NO.

Under the "scenario" you gave, I would have a rematch of Michigan vs ND. Why? Well your scenario had a lot of odd wins/losses and Michigan played ND in Sept. ND has chance to redeem themselves against USC @USC. Beating USC tells ME that ND can beat anybody. They deserve their shot against OSU/Michigan winner. (provided USC beats CAL)

The loser in the Michigan/OSU game dpen't have the opportunity to redeem themselves UNLESS you vote in the LOSER to play in the BCS NC.

Like I said, I DO NOT REWARD LOSERS!

2nd, how can a team (without a playoff) win the BCS NC without even winning their conference? MAKES NO SENSE unless there was a playoff system.

All in all, if the 2 teams played in Sept and maybe early OCT. I would sorta be ok with rematch. If the 2 teams played in November, I am most likely NOT in favor. Unless a team was able to redeem their late season loss.

 

[CWood97]

2nd, how can a team (without a playoff) win the BCS NC without even winning their conference? MAKES NO SENSE unless there was a playoff system.

I agree. And under this premise, ND would not be included in the national championship game.

Scott, you can blow hot air all you want, but there is no rational way to justify ND getting a BCS title game bid. I know you think ND beating SC at the Coliseum is the football equivalent of Rocky knocking out Apollo Creed, but it just ain't so. SC is a good team this year, but fricking Washington gave them a run at home this year. They are not the USC of 2002-2005! If ND gets a few breaks and SC isn't at their best, then ND can win, and an ND win doesn't erase what happened in September against Michigan. It doesn't erase the fact that they should have lost at MSU, and nearly lost to UCLA at home with a 2nd string QB. It certainly doesn't erase the fact that a win at USC would be the only high quality win Charlie Weis and company have had since he arrived.

Will they have earned a BCS bowl bid if they beat SC? Sure. A BCS title game bid? absolutely not!

 

[Scott4USC]

I agree. And under this premise, ND would not be included in the national championship game.

You know that ND is INDEPENDENT so under that premise, ND is included. They would have 1 loss and an impressive resume.

Scott, you can blow hot air all you want, but there is no rational way to justify ND getting a BCS title game bid.

I think you can make valid argument for or against ND. I think I have valid argument FOR ND.

I know you think ND beating SC at the Coliseum is the football equivalent of Rocky knocking out Apollo Creed, but it just ain't so.

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

Very funny.

USC played Washington with Stanback and you better believe UW gave USC their best game.

If ND gets a few breaks and SC isn't at their best, then ND can win, and an ND win doesn't erase what happened in September against Michigan.

If USC turns the ball over 4 times and gives ND a punt return TD, then I will not be that impressed with ND.

We all know USC and ND will be giving their best effor and be focused.

It doesn't erase the fact that they should have lost at MSU, and nearly lost to UCLA at home with a 2nd string QB. It certainly doesn't erase the fact that a win at USC would be the only high quality win Charlie Weis and company have had since he arrived.

TRUE!

Will they have earned a BCS bowl bid if they beat SC? Sure. A BCS title game bid? absolutely not!

ND still has a strong SOS. ND first 4-5 games of season were brutal. Beating USC @USC redeems their loss to Michigan. I believe teams CAN redeem themselves. Just not every team gets that chance. Lucky for ND, they do get that opportunity.

 

[CWood97]

You know that ND is INDEPENDENT so under that premise, ND is included. They would have 1 loss and an impressive resume.

If the rest of the nation is going to be required to win a conference championship to play for a national title, then ND has to be as well. ND is the ONLY REASON a conference champion stipulation was not made in the BCS rules after the OU debacle in 03. We all know ND would not win the B10, SEC, B12 or Pac10 this year. Its debatable whether or not they could win the Big East or ACC. The fact that they are not in a conference should not give them an advantage over the rest of the field.

 

[R-7]

I agree no way on ND, but I also believe it is going to be a moot point. I think USC works them...

 

[Scott4USC]

If the rest of the nation is going to be required to win a conference championship to play for a national title, then ND has to be as well. ND is the ONLY REASON a conference champion stipulation was not made in the BCS rules after the OU debacle in 03. We all know ND would not win the B10, SEC, B12 or Pac10 this year. Its debatable whether or not they could win the Big East or ACC. The fact that they are not in a conference should not give them an advantage over the rest of the field.

TRUE but ND plays a tough schedule. Tougher schedule than most college teams. I believe ND will end the season with a top 10 ranked SOS. Doesn't matter if ND is not in a conference.

If you are INDEPENDENT and want to compete for BCS NC, play a tougher SOS than most. That is what ND does. They always play tough SOS.

 

[Dice34]

TRUE but ND plays a tough schedule. Tougher schedule than most college teams. I believe ND will end the season with a top 10 ranked SOS. Doesn't matter if ND is not in a conference.

If you are INDEPENDENT and want to compete for BCS NC, play a tougher SOS than most. That is what ND does. They always play tough SOS.

ND plays a tougher schedule???? the teams they have beaten assuming they beat perenial power Army......the opponents record 43-50.......Michigans opponents 55-54.........so if ND beats USC the opponents will be 53-52 assuming usc beats Cal.............so the records should stay relatively the same over the next few weeks b/c of conference play.....doh! thats right ND is not in a confernence......with that brutal stretch of UCLA, Stanford, North Carolina, Navy and Army their opp record will get worse with only one top 10 bcs victory............whereas Michigan will have TWO!!! and one of those against those overrated Irish............its all about money with the Irish and they seem to get special treatment, it figures you would back them since they are in the same overrated category as the Trojans........

 

[CWood97]

TRUE but ND plays a tough schedule. Tougher schedule than most college teams. I believe ND will end the season with a top 10 ranked SOS. Doesn't matter if ND is not in a conference.

If you are INDEPENDENT and want to compete for BCS NC, play a tougher SOS than most. That is what ND does. They always play tough SOS.

I don't agree that ND has played a tough schedule compared to the other contenders, but that is beside the point.

If a conference championship is a precondition of playing in the BCS championship game, then it has to be a precondition for EVERYONE! So, it's either (a) have no conference championship stipulation, (b) exclude ND categorically or (c) ND gets in a conference. The BCS knows that ND won't join a conference, so (c) is out. (b) is out because the networks want ND involved. Therefore, the BCS is left with option (a).

I agree that winning your conference should be mandatory, but it has to be mandatory for everyone.

It's black and white Scott. Rematches are OK, or they're not. Conference championships are mandatory, or they're not. Wherever you stand, it has to apply to everyone (yes, even the storied ND!). You can't pick and choose based on what's convenient for your team or who you support.

 

[Scott4USC]

I think ND, other independents and non BCS conference teams have to make sure they play a tough strength of schedule. Do that, you are in if you win. Simple. Earn your invite. Play a tougher schedule than most. That is exactly what ND does year in year out. They play a tougher schedule than most. Key word is "most." That makes up for them not being in a conference and being a conf. champ.

ND practically plays a Big 10 schedule every year and they always have USC on it. Most of their opponents are from BCS conferences and ND NEVER plays 1aa schools. ND also plays on the road.

 

[treynolds]

I said if USC was undefeated heading into ND. USC loses to ND = 1 USC loss. Arkansas = 1 loss to USC. I would give ARKY the bid over USC because USC lost to ND and I do not reward LOSERS. Now if ARKY played a real $hitty SOS and USC played a real tough SOS, then we might have an argument for USC. But then again, I do not like rewarding teams who lose at the end of the year.




That is an easy question.

Michigan vs ND :thumb:

I am not a fan of rematches but this would be ok in my book. Michigan played ND in Sept. LONG time ago. ND beating USC @USC proves they are different team now vs in Sept.

U guys are forgetting about boise state:mj07: :mj07:

 

[treynolds]

Heres the thing if a 1 loss nd team gets into the championship it wouldnt be that bad. They have alot of big time players who can make plays, and with a month to prepare they could beat almost anyone. (I remember us all saying that ohio st didnt stand a chance against miami 4 years ago)

If michigan loses in a close game to osu i think they could still have a good shot of making the championship game, how about 3 years ago when oklahoma lost to kansas st in the big 12 championship game and then still played usc in the championship game over auburn who was more deserving?
Michigan is going to need to catch some breaks to ohio st this weekend.

 

[DIRTY Diapers]

ND plays a tougher schedule???? the teams they have beaten assuming they beat perenial power Army......the opponents record 43-50.......Michigans opponents 55-54.........so if ND beats USC the opponents will be 53-52 assuming usc beats Cal.............so the records should stay relatively the same over the next few weeks b/c of conference play.....doh! thats right ND is not in a confernence......with that brutal stretch of UCLA, Stanford, North Carolina, Navy and Army their opp record will get worse with only one top 10 bcs victory............whereas Michigan will have TWO!!! and one of those against those overrated Irish............its all about money with the Irish and they seem to get special treatment, it figures you would back them since they are in the same overrated category as the Trojans........

LOL - Didn't Army beat Baylor this year? Something Kansas St. couldn't do...

How about the MAC teams the B10 schedule every year?

'06 academies v. MAC
- Navy 49 Eastern Mich. 21
- Army 17 Kent 14

MAC all time v. Academies:

MAC is 1-1 v. Air Force
MAC is 5-11 v. Army
MAC is 7-10 v. Navy