Scott Walker new Gov of Wisconsin

[Trench]

Wisconsin to Washington: GOP declares war against workers

by Brent Budowsky | February 19, 2011 - 1:11pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Republicans are doing from Madison, Wis., to Washington, D.C., is waging a war against workers that will destroy a million jobs for Americans.

The GOP is waging a war against teachers, against firefighters, against police, against programs that create jobs, against men and women who hunger for jobs, against pay equity for women, and against the economic recovery that has only begun.

I will guarantee that when the full budget proposals of House Republicans are added to the full budget proposals of Republican governors, leading and objective analysts will conclude that a million American jobs will be lost.

The Republicans are not engaging in deficit reduction, they are fomenting a political civil war based on an ideology that is radical and extreme compared not only to generations of Democrats, but to generations of the most respected Republicans who never proposed anything like what Republicans are proposing today.

Just watch the House Republicans, voting in rapid fire on amendments they could not have had the time to read, attacking one program after another in a campaign that will destroy jobs America needs.

This is not a war against deficits, it is a war against collective bargaining, a war against job-creating programs, a war against the very idea of government creating jobs.

In many cases this is a war against policies that help women, a war against pay equity for women, a war against new jobs for women and a war against poor women and their daughters and sons.

In 1937, Franklin Roosevelt, under pressure from what was called the conservative coalition of that time, supported cutbacks in spending that caused a relapse of Depression-era conditions at the very moment the economy was recovering. Republicans would repeat that disastrous mistake today.

There are plenty of good ways to lower the deficit, but destroying jobs with ideologically extreme attacks on programs that create jobs is a disastrous attack of epic and historic proportions.

The Republican Speaker might say "so be it" when jobs are destroyed, but a program that would destroy a million jobs is bad for workers, bad for jobs and bad for America.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread...o-washington-gop-declares-war-against-workers

 

[Trench]

 

[The Sponge]

Serious question yyz, how does a forced union such as in your case benefit you any better than the teacher organizations we have here in my right to work state. According to stats in this thread Ga. is one of the top paid states and yet we have no official union. I guess what I am asking is how does forcing people to pay dues to be part of something benefit anyone as much as the union itself. I am not being cross, I just honestly would like to know what you get out of the "Unions" that I dont get out of my "Organization" that I choose to participate in. Thanks!

Most of those dues go to guys who fight nonsense like what is going on today. That is the bottom line. So in my opinion when u have guys fighting to protect ur salary against a guy who will not even come to the table, it is money very well spent. Very well spent. Now of course there is the one and a million guy who takes off with the money but that happens in every faze of our life. A bad apple in the bunch. Of course the righties like to make it seem like every union boss is a crook because one of them got caught. Simply because unions see right thru most of these righties and won't give them a cent. Well not all righties. There are some that get money and actually will work together unlike this fellow. It is amazing what can happen when people are willing to sit down and work together. We have a contract in May coming up in the carpenters union. We know we are gonna lose things and the last thing we want is contractors losing their business. The contract will get done and we will give some stuff back. Now if they are gonna refuse to come to the table like this asshat then it will turn ugly. Just come to the table and lets talk. Stop with the hidden agenda because ur party are corporate whores who put greed ahead of everything.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Stop with the hidden agenda because ur party are corporate whores who put greed ahead of everything.

:0074

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I was in a union years ago. Great job with great benefits. Then I watched around me as I saw jobs in my industry going overseas. So I started making other plans. With the threat of moving jobs overseas the company continued to break the union. Now its a fucking joke. I'm glad I got out of there. People are making probably 40% of what they were when I was there. The middle class is disappearing and we have people in the middle class actually supporting these moves. I would say i'm shocked but i'm not. People get what they deserve.

 

[yyz]

Sorry boys....was working all day, and fighting a snow storm on the way home.

I'm guessing the 23 cars I saw bent up in the ditch along the highway on the way home, would have liked to have had the snow plowed?

But......cuts have to be made.

In all seriousness, those cuts have not taken effect yet, but when they do, those plows won't be out there as fast, and as often as we see them now, and you can bet your last buck these dopes will bitch about that.

"I'm paying to have these roads plowed!!!!!"

No.....you used to. Now, you get what you pay for.


Hey, Wayne? I see what you posted, and I find one thing very interseting about it:

It's probably the only study in history that concludes the more trials you have, the further from the truth you get.

Just sounds strange to me.

 

[GENO]

Sorry boys....was working all day, and fighting a snow storm on the way home.

I'm guessing the 23 cars I saw bent up in the ditch along the highway on the way home, would have liked to have had the snow plowed?

But......cuts have to be made.

In all seriousness, those cuts have not taken effect yet, but when they do, those plows won't be out there as fast, and as often as we see them now, and you can bet your last buck these dopes will bitch about that.

"I'm paying to have these roads plowed!!!!!"

No.....you used to. Now, you get what you pay for.


Hey, Wayne? I see what you posted, and I find one thing very interseting about it:

It's probably the only study in history that concludes the more trials you have, the further from the truth you get.

Just sounds strange to me.

Some body shops and parts sales guys will be smiling, unless of course they total, but I Hope nobody was hurt bad.

 

[ssd]

yyz -

whether these cuts happen or not should not affect the snow plow drivers going out and getting their job done. Unless, you are talking about cutting 5000 jobs and not cutting the benefits.

I take issue with this post;
The Wisconsin union contracts were arrived at by negotiation. They were agreed to by elected public officials. Those officials could have said no.

I have no issue with private unions - those benefits are paid out of profit and if management negotiated a bad deal, well then, they have to increase profit or go broke.

Public unions are a conflict of interest. Unions vote democratic. How difficult of a negotiation was it when you had Democratic leaders negotiating a new union contract? It is bad policy.

Unfunded future state liabilities - across the nation, not just Wisconsin - they are the 800 lb gorilla in every room that no one wants to address.
Walker is trying to address them. While I will agree that he has taken a hammer to a situation that required a hell of a lot more finesse, he is at least looking at the situation. I wish a discourse and a dialogue could have happened first.

 

[Duff Miver]

I take issue with this post;
The Wisconsin union contracts were arrived at by negotiation. They were agreed to by elected public officials. Those officials could have said no.


What issue do you take? Is the above not exactly what happened?

If the elected officials agreed to overly generous wages and benefits, well then, it's their job to figure out how to pay the bill isn't it?- increase taxes, cut some other expense.

And if they fail in their job, they can be replaced at the voter's whim, can't they?

And if the elected officials were largely Democrat, well that's what the voters wanted, isn't it?

It's called "democracy" and it's sometimes an imperfect and messy process.

A dictator could solve any wage or tax problem instantly.

What system of government do you prefer?

First Amendment - Religion and Expression

Amendment Text | Annotations

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[Turfgrass]

I take issue with this post;
The Wisconsin union contracts were arrived at by negotiation. They were agreed to by elected public officials. Those officials could have said no.


What issue do you take? Is the above not exactly what happened?

If the elected officials agreed to overly generous wages and benefits, well then, it's their job to figure out how to pay the bill isn't it?- increase taxes, cut some other expense.

And if they fail in their job, they can be replaced at the voter's whim, can't they?

And if the elected officials were largely Democrat, well that's what the voters wanted, isn't it?

It's called "democracy" and it's sometimes an imperfect and messy process.

A dictator could solve any wage or tax problem instantly.

What system of government do you prefer?

First Amendment - Religion and Expression

Amendment Text | Annotations

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Does anybody else see any hypocrisy in this statement?

That's what happening now right? Sorry in advance if I missed the mark here.

 

[Mags]

Does anybody else see any hypocrisy in this statement?

That's what happening now right? Sorry in advance if I missed the mark here.

Turf - exactly. The good folks of our state wanted Walker. They wanted him to do the right things. I'm more convinced than every that he is.

You are absolutely correct about Public collective bargaining and the conflict of interest issue. This is exactly what FDR, the father of collective bargaining, said that CB should NEVER be allowed in the public sector.

I've been waiting for some polls on this issue. I saw one today from Rasmussen (I know the liberals don't like Rasmussen as they think it leans right - which it very well may do), but:

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely U.S. Voters agree more with the Republican governor in his dispute with union workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) agree more with the unionized public employees, while 14% are undecided.

This doesn't surprise me - as the people here, the majority, as strongly behind this.

I'd love to see any other polls that people may find, even from left leaning organizations. I'm interested in how the rest of the nation views this (I already know how Muffy, etc view this - I'm looking for public polling).

If anyone has them, please post them.

 

[Duff Miver]

Turf - exactly. The good folks of our state wanted Walker. They wanted him to do the right things. I'm more convinced than every that he is.

You are absolutely correct about Public collective bargaining and the conflict of interest issue. This is exactly what FDR, the father of collective bargaining, said that CB should NEVER be allowed in the public sector.

I've been waiting for some polls on this issue. I saw one today from Rasmussen (I know the liberals don't like Rasmussen as they think it leans right - which it very well may do), but:

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely U.S. Voters agree more with the Republican governor in his dispute with union workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) agree more with the unionized public employees, while 14% are undecided.

This doesn't surprise me - as the people here, the majority, as strongly behind this.

I'd love to see any other polls that people may find, even from left leaning organizations. I'm interested in how the rest of the nation views this (I already know how Muffy, etc view this - I'm looking for public polling).

If anyone has them, please post them.

I've already explained to you, Maggot, the difference between majority desire and freedom in a democracy. Either you don't, or can't, comprehend simple concepts.

But, since you think we should make societal decisions based on polls, here's one for you.

In the poll released Monday in Washington by Hamilton College of Clinton, N.Y., 50.3 percent of respondents said they strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement: ``It's OK if the races are basically separate from one another as long as everyone has equal opportunities.''

So, according to you, we should rescind the decision in Board v. Brown.

As to Scott Rasmussen - everybody with a lick of sense knows that he is the king of push polls which produce whatever result his masters at Fox News want.

 

[The Sponge]

If fox noise and nitwit neo-con radio said elephants were pink as much as they have said unions are bad im sure the public would think elephants were pink and they could pull 60 percent in a poll. This country is loaded with a bunch of followers with a small percentage of leaders. Bottom five in education world wide. Polls mean nothing either way. Republicans hate teachers. Why would a con-artist like someone who might bring up your IQ? Their base is loaded with jackasses. They like to keep them that way.

 

[Mags]

I've already explained to you, Maggot, the difference between majority desire and freedom in a democracy. Either you don't, or can't, comprehend simple concepts.

But, since you think we should make societal decisions based on polls, here's one for you.

In the poll released Monday in Washington by Hamilton College of Clinton, N.Y., 50.3 percent of respondents said they strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement: ``It's OK if the races are basically separate from one another as long as everyone has equal opportunities.''

So, according to you, we should rescind the decision in Board v. Brown.

As to Scott Rasmussen - everybody with a lick of sense knows that he is the king of push polls which produce whatever result his masters at Fox News want.

Duffy:

I'll ignore the insults and focus on the issues.

So, you truly don't see a difference between a public union or private union? Really? The whole idea of bargaining with the folks you put in charge?

I KNOW you are smarter than that.

Nobody is arguing about CB for private unions. But most everyone realizes that it is bad public policy to have them in the private sector.

But, even for you, public policy for the COMMON good - which means all citizens and taxpayers - is still not enough, eh?

Talking about catering to special interests - that is EXACTLY what the Dems are doing here.

 

[Duff Miver]

But, even for you, public policy for the COMMON good - which means all citizens and taxpayers - is still not enough, eh?

What is seen by a majority as "the common good" is nonsense. Virtually no individuals support the common good, rather they support what is best for themselves. Just look at the responses from folks like doggie and you right here on this thread. Has either one of you given on moment's thought to common good of quality education in Wisconsin?

No. You're both crybabies, whining about a budget shortfall and sniveling because you don't have the security that teachers have, and might have to fork over a few dollars for the common good.

 

[Mags]

What is seen by a majority as "the common good" is nonsense. Virtually no individuals support the common good, rather they support what is best for themselves. Just look at the responses from folks like doggie and you right here on this thread. Has either one of you given on moment's thought to common good of quality education in Wisconsin?

No. You're both crybabies, whining about a budget shortfall and sniveling because you don't have the security that teachers have, and might have to fork over a few dollars for the common good.

Money has NOTHING to do with education results and you know it. We've been throwing more and more money at schools in WI for years - and results keep gettting worse.

MPS - it is the WORST performing public school system in a big city in the country (this was recently in the local paper). Why? Underpaid teachers? NO Underskilled teachers? Probably not.

MPS has a 40% truancy rate each and every day. No amount of money toward education will ever fix the problem of trying to teach a kid that is not there.

Family values, and family responsibility - with 2 parents at home that value education, are key components to learning. How is paying teachers even more than the going market rate going to fix that? Of course, it isn't.

Yea, we need to pay teachers more to get better results....:mj07:

 

[Mags]

BLS: Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages - shown today: State Government employees average 2009 salary: $51,305. Average private sector employee (same experience, job, et): $38,626. On top of this, the benefit packages are also worth much more in the public sector.

That is pretty tough to defend for the unions - why should the tax paying public pay a 33% markup on labor above the market rate?

FYI - just in - the Republicans have found a way to deal with the Senate Dems who aren't interested in participating anymore. Seems that they are going to peel off the collective bargaining portion of Walker's bill and are going to attach that to a non spending bill that is currently in the house/senate.

The beauty of this is, you do not need a 20 member quorum to pass a bill that is unrelated to spending. So they can move on this piece without waiting for the Dems to ever return.

How do you like that! :00hour

The people will win! Normally I wouldn't agree with this tactic, but given the way the Dem's have behaved and teachers calling in sick, this seems to be the appropriate course of action.

 

[Duff Miver]

MPS has a 40% truancy rate each and every day. No amount of money toward education will ever fix the problem of trying to teach a kid that is not there.

Family values, and family responsibility - with 2 parents at home that value education, are key components to learning. How is paying teachers even more than the going market rate going to fix that? Of course, it isn't.

Yea, we need to pay teachers more to get better results....:mj07:

I'll ignore your non-sequitur verbiage about money and quality of education, however I will agree with you that students who are absent, inattentive, obstreperous and otherwise unteachable are a huge problem. I'll also agree with you that much of that problem starts at home.

This is completely off-topic of this thread, but I'd like to hear from you what YOU think can and should be done about that problem.

I've long seen this as one of the biggest problems WE have, and I have my own ideas, which I will append lower below, but would like to hear yours first. No peeking.

I understand the problem with inner city schools like MPS, so here's another question for you: What do YOU think is a fair salary for a teacher in that system, or, to put it more directly, what would it get YOU to teach in MPS?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Merit bonuses for teachers. If, for example, we give a teacher 50th percentile students, and the teacher produces 60th percentile scholars, a bonus is paid.

Substantial bonuses for teaching in troubled school systems.

Tough truancy enforcement. Parents of truant or unruly students are held accountable, including mandatory* counseling, and punishment which can be as severe as weekend jail time.

Mandatory* outreach programs for incompetent parents.

*I would have them hauled in by LEOs if necessary.

Complete ejection from the public school system of students who are violent or sufficiently disruptive. Boot camp residence schools if necessary.

Establishment of quality trade schools, including an apprentice system for students not academically inclined. This could replace grades 10-12.

Birth control instruction, starting in the 7th or 8th grades.

Oversight of home schoolers.

Free abortion on demand as unwanted babies often become poor students and citizens.

 

[Duff Miver]

]BLS: Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages - shown today: State Government employees average 2009 salary: $51,305. Average private sector employee (same experience, job, et): $38,626. On top of this, the benefit packages are also worth much more in the public sector.[/COLOR]

That is pretty tough to defend for the unions - why should the tax paying public pay a 33% markup on labor above the market rate?

FYI - just in - the Republicans have found a way to deal with the Senate Dems who aren't interested in participating anymore. Seems that they are going to peel off the collective bargaining portion of Walker's bill and are going to attach that to a non spending bill that is currently in the house/senate.

The beauty of this is, you do not need a 20 member quorum to pass a bill that is unrelated to spending. So they can move on this piece without waiting for the Dems to ever return.

How do you like that! :00hour

The people will win! Normally I wouldn't agree with this tactic, but given the way the Dem's have behaved and teachers calling in sick, this seems to be the appropriate course of action.

Not that I distrust you, Maggot, but please provide the link.

 

[Mags]

I'll ignore your non-sequitur verbiage about money and quality of education, however I will agree with you that students who are absent, inattentive, obstreperous and otherwise unteachable are a huge problem. I'll also agree with you that much of that problem starts at home.

This is completely off-topic of this thread, but I'd like to hear from you what YOU think can and should be done about that problem.

I've long seen this as one of the biggest problems WE have, and I have my own ideas, which I will append lower below, but would like to hear yours first. No peeking.

I understand the problem with inner city schools like MPS, so here's another question for you: What do YOU think is a fair salary for a teacher in that system, or, to put it more directly, what would it get YOU to teach in MPS?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Merit bonuses for teachers. If, for example, we give a teacher 50th percentile students, and the teacher produces 60th percentile scholars, a bonus is paid.

Substantial bonuses for teaching in troubled school systems.

Tough truancy enforcement. Parents of truant or unruly students are held accountable, including mandatory* counseling, and punishment which can be as severe as weekend jail time.

Mandatory* outreach programs for incompetent parents.

*I would have them hauled in by LEOs if necessary.

Complete ejection from the public school system of students who are violent or sufficiently disruptive. Boot camp residence schools if necessary.

Establishment of quality trade schools, including an apprentice system for students not academically inclined. This could replace grades 10-12.

Birth control instruction, starting in the 7th or 8th grades.

Oversight of home schoolers.

Free abortion on demand as unwanted babies often become poor students and citizens.

These are tough society issues that I certainly am not qualified to try to fix. But since you asked:

I think you let the free market decide what pay is given at schools in the inner city. My guess is that pay will need to be higher there, as they are not attractive places to teach (both public and private schools that are located there).

I've never been a fan of evaluating teachers based on test scores. I have family members who are teachers - they all agree that it is very easy to distinguish good, average, and bad teachers. It should be the principals responsibility to evaluate and reward teachers based on quality - not test scores. This happens in private business all the time, and this would reward the right people, instead of all teachers treated the same.

Treating all teachers as the average teacher has been a common complaint I've heard. But of course underperforming teachers love the union, as they get pulled along at the same rate of pay.

Family planning issues are tricky. I'm not sure that treating the result (abortions) is the most effective way to go. Maybe something on the front end to stop having sex until it is appropriate (I know there are different definitions of that).

But children having children is not good for society overall, as this typically happens in the poor population, and just continues the cycle of poverty.

If you figure out a way to fix that, let me know.

Have a good day.