Scott Walker new Gov of Wisconsin

[Turfgrass]

Well, I think we could do this all day can't we?

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/07/14/teachers-job-market/

http://brainerddispatch.com/stories/060909/new_20090609002.shtml

 

[Chadman]

OK, well I guess I'm wrong then about there being more teachers than teaching jobs.

And I don't have the slightest idea what the reason is for so many applicants for this school system.

How did this spiral out into the entirety of the job market? I made a point that I saw a story that reported on several different states and that was the number they said. So, forgive me if I was misinformed.

The reason this became an issue about the entirety about the job market was your comment:

You may not know this, but there are more teachers than positions to fill...by something like a 5:1 ratio, so its not like there is a profound shortage of qualified candidates.

Sorry, I figured your attempts to educate me on the topic were done for a reason. Guess not. I guess I just figure when someone is talking about teacher shortages in many states to make a point, they might be talking about the overall issue - since that's what we were originally talking about.

There are always going to be a lot of teachers applying for the best jobs - nothing different from any profession. So, if your point is there is a 5:1 ratio (or whatever) for the best jobs in some areas of a few states - I'd say you're correct.

 

[Turfgrass]

The reason this became an issue about the entirety about the job market was your comment:

You may not know this, but there are more teachers than positions to fill...by something like a 5:1 ratio, so its not like there is a profound shortage of qualified candidates.

Sorry, I figured your attempts to educate me on the topic were done for a reason. Guess not. I guess I just figure when someone is talking about teacher shortages in many states to make a point, they might be talking about the overall issue - since that's what we were originally talking about.

There are always going to be a lot of teachers applying for the best jobs - nothing different from any profession. So, if your point is there is a 5:1 ratio (or whatever) for the best jobs in some areas of a few states - I'd say you're correct.

I was talking about the issue of "teacher shortages", but I had no idea that you were so "informed" to know that legitimate news stories were wrong and that I should know everything about every district.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33892103/ns/business-careers/

I read the above article and I think...WOW teaching must not be all that bad if everybody wants to be one.

Next time I read something like this I'll be sure to check with you to see if it's in fact true or not.

 

[Chadman]

It seemed (to me) that you were trying to make an overall point - and you essentially were trying to educate me on teacher shortages. As we discussed it, then it became about a very small number of situations, I guess. So be it. You can have your points about the areas that you think are important on this topic.

We are clearly talking about two different things, it seems. So, there's no point in continuing a discussion about different issues, and I think you agree.

 

[Chadman]

And I'll say that if your point is that like any job opening these days, there is plenty of competition for a lot of teaching jobs in sought after areas, you would be correct.

 

[Duff Miver]

You may not know this, but there are more teachers than positions to fill...by something like a 5:1 ratio, so its not like there is a profound shortage of qualified candidates.

I think you've confused yourself, Turf. There are most certainly not 5 teachers for each job which would mean 80% of teachers are unemployed.

What you are talking about may be 5 APPLICANTS for each job, since anyone, teacher or not, if unemployed, applies for more than one job.

I'll bet you can find some unemployed people who have made hundreds of applications.

 

[Turfgrass]

It seemed (to me) that you were trying to make an overall point - and you essentially were trying to educate me on teacher shortages. As we discussed it, then it became about a very small number of situations, I guess. So be it. You can have your points about the areas that you think are important on this topic.

We are clearly talking about two different things, it seems. So, there's no point in continuing a discussion about different issues, and I think you agree.

:facepalm:

I am talking about teaching overall. You seem to think it's just localized to certain high valued areas. Ultimately what I was talking about is what teachers are paid. It would seem like basic economic sense if you had more teachers than jobs then the market wouldn?t support the need and would lower the pay to said teacher, yet if there were no teachers to fill open positions then the pay would go up.

Here's one from the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/n...r=1&pagewanted=1&sq=teacher jobs&st=cse&scp=1

But whatever...

 

[Turfgrass]

I think you've confused yourself, Turf. There are most certainly not 5 teachers for each job which would mean 80% of teachers are unemployed.

What you are talking about may be 5 APPLICANTS for each job, since anyone, teacher or not, if unemployed, applies for more than one job.

I'll bet you can find some unemployed people who have made hundreds of applications.

Well, like I said...I don't vet these stories I just read them. If they give me a ratio then I take their word for it. It's not like I saw it on someone's hack site, these were legitimate sources.

Either way I guess I'm too old to get a teaching gig, otherwise it sounds like a great alternative to engineering.

 

[Duff Miver]

If they give me a ratio then I take their word for it.

I've got this beautiful and valuable land down on the Gulf Coast, and I'm going to let you have it waaaay below it's true value. Just take my word for it.........:mj07:

 

[Chadman]

:facepalm:

I am talking about teaching overall. You seem to think it's just localized to certain high valued areas. Ultimately what I was talking about is what teachers are paid. It would seem like basic economic sense if you had more teachers than jobs then the market wouldn?t support the need and would lower the pay to said teacher, yet if there were no teachers to fill open positions then the pay would go up.

Here's one from the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/n...r=1&pagewanted=1&sq=teacher jobs&st=cse&scp=1

But whatever...

Ok, I guess it's just me that's finding your discussion theme difficult to follow. That's not unusual, I suppose. I guess I'm not that aware of a large amount of teachers being out of work overall, perhaps that is the case. I'm sure there are more recently, for the same reasons there is high unemployment across the board. Perhaps wages are coming down in all areas of the economy, as you suggest should be the current case with teachers - I don't know. Personally, I doubt the teacher scenario to be much different in that regard than other sectors, but again, I could be wrong.

To equate teacher unemployment with incoming applications for teaching jobs in this day and age just doesn't add up to me, but I guess you are suggesting teaching is different from anything else these days. Many teachers take jobs early on just to get a job, then they apply in other areas or in other schools that are better positions for them, for whatever reason. I think this is more prevalent in teaching than in many other professions.

 

[Turfgrass]

I've got this beautiful and valuable land down on the Gulf Coast, and I'm going to let you have it waaaay below it's true value. Just take my word for it.........:mj07:

Exactly...like I said, I guess I didn't get it from a legitimate source.:142smilie

 

[yyz]

Here's our "crisis"......

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

 

[Chadman]

Latest report is that the Union is offering to accept the budget cuts that supposedly are so necessary for the budget "crisis." So, I guess we'll see if his concern is really about those cuts - or about Union busting for a part of the government workers.

 

[yyz]

Latest report is that the Union is offering to accept the budget cuts that supposedly are so necessary for the budget "crisis." So, I guess we'll see if his concern is really about those cuts - or about Union busting for a part of the government workers.

Accept WHAT?

He already said this is how it is???????? What is there to "accept"?

 

[Chadman]

Accept WHAT?

He already said this is how it is???????? What is there to "accept"?

The union membership (if it's true) is showing that they are not trying to get more money and benefits - as has been reported a lot the past two days - and are not being unrealistic about the budget situation. Agreeing to take less pay and pay more for their insurance is certainly responsible and in good faith - and it shows that if this is the REAL problem and issue, then that should be enough.

There are two issues on the table. The other one is the real issue, IMO, but we'll see. I think they are definitely within their right to raise hell about republicans trying to break up their negotiating rights on the vast majority of their issues, especially under the guise of what is supposedly the issue.

 

[Mags]

Funny thing about teaching - everyone outside the teaching profession talks about how great the job is - only 9 months of work, great benefits, yada yada. Then, why don't more people do it? Let's see - a couple reasons come to mind - people want to make more money (AH, THE IRONY), and they aren't dedicated or intelligent enough to do it.

Ridiculing them for being unionized, somehow they should not be allowed to do that to try to make as much as they can, keep what they've negotiated for, rising up against political influence trying to dictate how they should teach, what they should focus on, applying national regulations and requirements on how their business is run.

But boy, tell anyone outside that arena the same kind of thing, who yells the loudest and screams against that kind of thing? Don't regulate MY industry. Don't tell me how to run MY business. Don't take away what I'VE worked hard to achieve.

I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored, right? Listen, I can appreciate the complaints about unions these days and being unreasonable about what they should get or maybe foregoing those things for a while when times are tough. But there are plenty of decisions made about how to spend money in our education system that have very little to do with student education or teacher-relations.

I guess I don't really understand all of this, haven't had time to look at it - but I don't really think running and hiding on the issue is the best way to go about it - but it also looks like the Republicans are trying to ram this legislation down the throats of democrats - and I seriously doubt all those Republican legislators are seriously considering all viewpoints and how to fully represent all their constituents with this move.

Chad:

I do appreciate your insights - probably more than anyone else on the board.

But even you got to admit - this is JUST like Obamacare, part II. The Dem's rammed it down the Repubs throats.

To quote Nancy Pelosi: "The ends justify the means". And Mr. Obama "Elections have consequences".

That was THEIR justification for passing the bill - even again the majority public opinion.

Here is WI, the public opinion is behind this bill (clearly the teachers aren't, but they are the minority). What are the rules different now that Republicans are doing exactly what the Dems did?

AND you didn't see the Repubs run away from the vote and shut the government down.

In the end, it won't matter. This will pass in its current form, with a few small amendments that don't mean much, and WI will be much better long term because of it.

And Scott Walker will end up being a presidential candidate in 6 years - wait and see.

 

[Mags]

Do you honestly think that there is a 5:1 ratio of teachers to positions across this country? I eagerly await the link to your information. Sorry, the "I think I saw that somewhere," thing isn't exactly proof.

Do you have any idea which direction teacher numbers are headed? Do you realize how many teachers are heading towards retirement, compared to coming into the profession? Even if you don't know, can you imagine which way they would be headed, considering how high retirement numbers are going to be in the coming years on a strict age-population basis?

I know for a FACT, that in the State of Minnesota there was a law JUST PASSED this Wednesday making it easier for teachers coming here from other states to become teachers here - since our standards and requirements are so high to become a teacher. I exchanged e-mails with three legislators and spoke to one personally about this, and that's the reason they gave for the legislation - TEACHER SHORTAGES in many areas. Sure, there are probably teacher application rates of 5:1 in some school districts, for some schools - just like in any business.

Again - I await your link to the 5:1 ratio - some perspective will help.

Chad - some perspective - teaching jobs are golden in WI. My sis-in-law is a teacher - and she had to beat out 30 candidates a few years ago to get the spot.

It is a very popular profession it seems for moms - as it fits perfectly with their kids schedule - they teach when the kids go to school and are off with them in the summer. And, as a 2nd income, with the great benefits, it is just an awesome thing for them.

Problem it is too awesome in WI - especially when comparisons are made to the private teachers in the state (some education/experience). Which is why we need changes. And we'll get 'em.

 

[Trench]

I still think $25,000 is really good for 9 months pay (plus benefits).

$46,000 is awesome...no wonder we have so many people who want to be teachers.

:0074

Stop it, you're killing me, Turf... :mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

 

[Trench]

:mj07:

Mmmmkay. You're not paying for anything.

His monthly out-of-pocket expenses just keeping himself in Budweiser and Camels can't be cheap? :shrug:

 

[Trench]

It's not like I'm making this ratio up...

Ummm, yeah... ya did make it up.

You clearly stated that the teacher to job ratio is 5:1 (not once, but twice) and you didn't qualify it in any way. That implies you're claiming it to be the national average. Have you provided any "facts" to support that claim? No, you have not.

What you've provided are a few anecdotal cases of teacher openings that attracted a lot of applicants. So what. There was a piece in the news recently where an opening for a school janitor (I don't recall the location; might have been West Virginia) attracted more than 900 applicants. By your logic then, the janitor to job ratio must be at least double-digit.

These examples are nothing more than symptoms of an economic recession. To imply anything else is absurd.